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Who will be the next Labour leader?

Who will replace Corbyn?


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What part is incorrect? You've argued that some type of party is necessary to bring about the changes you want. You've argued against workers control of their communities.

I'm not sure whether you'd consider yourself a socialist, a social democrat or just a left liberal but your politics mirrors that of the Webbs, top-down, the party leading the elect to the light.
What's incorrect is self-evident; that you've had to go fucking about bringing posts from a different time and context into it to fight an argument not remotely being made here. It's dishonest.

I don't know that I would necessarily make all the same arguments I have in the past now, especially given recent big fat lessons - my opinion isn't immutable. But I certainly can't be arsed to go back through time trying to remember and then reconcile or not whatever it was I was on about in some different discussion. Fuck that.

Neither I nor the other poster you've quoted have said anything, in the posts being argued, about the necessity of top down leadership, just the necessity of leadership. You've decided the rest of it for yourself and then argued against it.
 
Hundreds of thousands of people signed up, a lot of whom hadn't been involved in anything before or who didn't (maybe still don't) view their involvement as political 'action' so much as just doing stuff in their community - although both build the same networks. Some will do one thing, others will do another, blanket pessimism like yours there is meaningless.

The significance of this cannot be underestimated. The potential, if directed properly, it represents is also important.

But before going further a series of questions need to be considered. What sort of activity has been undertaken? Where? What were the results? How many were involved? Is it ongoing? Has it gone beyond 'bussed in' activists and volunteers? etc etc

My own guess is that a lot of energy, time and people have been squandered on social media activism. More has been committed to internal Labour Party factional power struggles.

The starting point therefore is to sort the wheat from the chaff here. Too much of the debate around this is an abstraction (I include myself in this). So the first question I have is this: is there a report or similar examining projects, activity and so on?
 
What part is incorrect? You've argued that some type of party is necessary to bring about the changes you want. You've argued against workers control of their communities.

I'm not sure whether you'd consider yourself a socialist, a social democrat or just a left liberal but your politics mirrors that of the Webbs, top-down, the party leading the elect to the light.

It’s laudable you have a consistent view, but this is about the leader of a party that is seeking to run the bourgeois state. It’s the very essence of top down. At this point voters want help. Wither away next week.
 
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What went wrong on December 12th? Answers from Labour Transformed - LabourList

Whatever the answers, they don't include the world transformed, Sabrina Huck is a full on open borders supporter.

The emphasis on intersectionality, on 'soothing' communities and the education of 'organic leaders (presumably to make them non-organic) are all, technically speaking, shit.

The condemnation of working class people who want to own their own home is the clincher - 'they fell for Thatcher's con trick and were then lost to the fight over building more council houses' I wonder if Sabrina grew up on a council estate?
 
Hundreds of thousands of people signed up, a lot of whom hadn't been involved in anything before or who didn't (maybe still don't) view their involvement as political 'action' so much as just doing stuff in their community - although both build the same networks. Some will do one thing, others will do another, blanket pessimism like yours there is meaningless.
Different goals make different networks. I'm not totally pessimistic either, as I never had any illusions in Labourism or parliamentarism. Here's a couple of examples that you should be pessimistic about... Unite Community members in my area being told to desist from Universal Credit activity and instead act as footsoldiers for the local Labour Party election campaign... the Radical Housing Network imploding due to loads of activists throwing in their lot with Corbynism. It's fucking rubbish. I'm partly optimistic now, basically in the hope that many of these bin off the electoral shite and get back to proper class activities that don't involve propping up the left wing of capital... I'm partly pessimistic because I doubt we'll get many of these back.
 
No, you're misunderstanding gambling.

No bet is a sure fire bet or it wouldn't be a bet. You take a risk which is your stake in search of a reward which is your payout. 5/1 represents good value in terms of risk/reward because it was priced poorly by the bookies. Now that it is 6/4 whatever your stake/risk is it pays out less but the risk is the same.

Additionally if you can't afford to stake much (and you should never risk more than you can afford) the reward becomes negligible for the risk - if I risk a tenner at 5/1 the possible reward is 50 quid which is a night out or a weeks shopping but 15 quid is a cheap round of drinks so I might as well just put the tenner towards the drinks and not bother.

It's similar to poker - what risk you take and how you play has to be influenced by what is available to win. No one makes a big bet or a risky bluff call to win a tiny pot.

Ok mate, whatever, I don’t understand gambling. ;)

Or mug punters. :)
 
It’s laudable you have a consistent view, but this is about the leader of a party that is seeking to run the bourgeois state. It’s the very essence of top down. At this point voters want help. Wither away next week.
Of course. I'm no arguing that the LP moving to embrace direct democracy is either likely or would be possible under the current political framework of the party. That's exactly why I agree with the comments Serge Forward has made about the LP, its exactly why I don't believe the LP can deliver the outcomes I want.
 
What's incorrect is self-evident; that you've had to go fucking about bringing posts from a different time and context into it to fight an argument not remotely being made here. It's dishonest.
This is one of the silliest things you've said yet. By this reasoning if someone was to argue on thread against measures that stop social mobility and was to argue on another for private schools it would be dishonest to point this out. Totally absurd. Political views don't exist in a vacuum (or at least they shouldn't), part of the point of debate is to tease out the contradictions and inconsistencies made.

Of course your view on the role of the LP in bringing about the changes you want is relevant to a discussion of how leadership of the LP should be defined. Of course your views on workers control of their community, and direct democracy are relevant to what the role of the leader of a political organisation. To argue otherwise if frankly pathetic.

Now if you views have changed since you made the posts I linked to fine, views do change but and if you are now saying that you don't hold those positions then ok but the idea that it is unreasonable to interpret your current claims in light of your past claims is garbage. The posts I linked to are hardly from the dawn of time, they were made within the last year and a bit, and are consistent with many other posts you've made.

Neither I nor the other poster you've quoted have said anything, in the posts being argued, about the necessity of top down leadership, just the necessity of leadership. You've decided the rest of it for yourself and then argued against it.
Both you and Moose specifically drew a, partial, equivalence between the leader of the political party and a CEO. If that is not top down leadership I don't know what is.
 
This is one of the silliest things you've said yet. By this reasoning if someone was to argue on thread against measures that stop social mobility and was to argue on another for private schools it would be dishonest to point this out. Totally absurd. Political views don't exist in a vacuum (or at least they shouldn't), part of the point of debate is to tease out the contradictions and inconsistencies made.

Of course your view on the role of the LP in bringing about the changes you want is relevant to a discussion of how leadership of the LP should be defined. Of course your views on workers control of their community, and direct democracy are relevant to what the role of the leader of a political organisation. To argue otherwise if frankly pathetic.

Now if you views have changed since you made the posts I linked to fine, views do change but and if you are now saying that you don't hold those positions then ok but the idea that it is unreasonable to interpret your current claims in light of your past claims is garbage. The posts I linked to are hardly from the dawn of time, they were made within the last year and a bit, and are consistent with many other posts you've made.

Both you and Moose specifically drew a, partial, equivalence between the leader of the political party and a CEO. If that is not top down leadership I don't know what is.
I don't know why I'm humouring this but here we go.

The posts you've pulled from your files and linked to are, respectively, about (1) how I think, not enormously controversially, that the outcomes of parliamentary politics have the biggest impact on conditions in the contemporary UK, and (2) how it's too late in proceedings for anyone but states to mitigate the impact of global warming. For the maintenance of your records I continue to think both of these things are broadly true, at least until you can give me a rough date for the emergence of revolutionary socialism. Some of it should probably be qualified further but I only have finite time on this mortal coil. However, neither of them are directly relevant to "discussion of how leadership of the LP should be defined". For the same reason they're not even really relevant to who is actually in control, just how that control may be manifested - directly or by proxy.

As Moose later pointed out, parliamentary structure is inherently top down but beyond this I've not attempted to assert the necessity for top-down control within the Labour Party. Indeed I would argue the opposite. One of the major failings of Corbynism was that it claimed to be interested in grassroots community organising and listening to people, then in the course of four years did not do those things to any significant degree. It may have listened but it did not reflect as much in its action; it was led from the top (not necessarily Corbyn) and this was a serious mistake. It used its people for heavily directed work, largely concerned with electoral campaigning. Only now are its members and satellites starting to show a renewed interest in something else.

This does not mean that a leader is redundant. I don't think the CEO term is very helpful in this discussion, probably a distraction, but I also don't think you understand what that is either; the spectrum of leadership possibilities. CEO is principally a position of responsibility, again an interface position where the blame or credit sits. It's not necessarily directive or prescriptive, though this may often be the case. A successful C-level leader could in the right circumstances do their job purely by enabling other people a long way beneath their hierarchical position; so it is with political leaders. Leadership isn't the same thing as ownership or control. I think amongst other things you're enormously overestimating what these people do.

If the Labour Party were to manage to transform itself into something that best manifested itself through local activity, winning the battle outside of electoral politics, then it would very likely still need a leader - one to represent those efforts, both as a symbol to its own people and especially to those yet to be convinced. The latter is what the second part of the first linked post is about, change through leadership of ideas, although it's of secondary importance to any of this. In particular the semblance of a traditional leadership role would be necessary in order to meet public electoral expectations; even though that may not be core to the bulk of what it does, it would be core to getting elected.

But all of this is a waste of time if you insist on taking it to be endorsement of some top-down elite-led structure.
 
If you really cannot see the relevance of workers direct democracy and the view of one's role of the LP in a discussion of what the leadership of LP means, how it should come about and what it's purpose is then you are far more myopic than I believed.
CEO is principally a position of responsibility, again an interface position where the blame or credit sits. It's not necessarily directive or prescriptive, though this may often be the case.... I think amongst other things you're enormously overestimating what these people do.
The above is nonsense, the creation of CEOs and business leaders has gone had in had with an attack on workers conditions and control.As for me overestimating what they do, well as I've said I think they are utterly redundant in terms of the functioning of the institution but they are crucial in the struggle between workers and employers. Vice-chancellors and headteachers being two prime examples, where once bodies for some type of worker representation (as flawed as they were) might have existed they have been sidelined and marginalised to provide greater opportunity for exploitation by senior management. To think that this is not top down imposition of control is absurd.
If the Labour Party were to manage to transform itself into something that best manifested itself through local activity, winning the battle outside of electoral politics, then it would very likely still need a leader - one to represent those efforts, both as a symbol to its own people and especially to those yet to be convinced.
Why? Other organisations exist without the type of leader you are talking about? There might be leaders within direct democracy they need been nothing like the current position of leader of the LP or even what you appear to want.
 
If you really cannot see the relevance of workers direct democracy and the view of one's role of the LP in a discussion of what the leadership of LP means, how it should come about and what it's purpose is then you are far more myopic than I believed.

The above is nonsense
A joy conversing with you as always.
the creation of CEOs and business leaders has gone had in had with an attack on workers conditions and control.As for me overestimating what they do, well as I've said I think they are utterly redundant in terms of the functioning of the institution but they are crucial in the struggle between workers and employers. Vice-chancellors and headteachers being two prime examples, where once bodies for some type of worker representation (as flawed as they were) might have existed they have been sidelined and marginalised to provide greater opportunity for exploitation by senior management. To think that this is not top down imposition of control is absurd.
As you would be the first to acknowledge, the exploitative behaviours you describe are the product of the relationship between capital and labour, not a fundamental property of leadership. How the role is commonly manifested speaks to that relationship but does not exclude the possibility that it can be a job of coordination, enablement, assumption of risk and representation rather than necessarily control. And don't pretend I put this forward as an absolute - it is not, it varies wildly.

The whole CEO comparison is probably the least important or interesting element of this whole discussion but your refusal to recognise any other perspective means we're stuck on it.

Why? Other organisations exist without the type of leader you are talking about? There might be leaders within direct democracy they need been nothing like the current position of leader of the LP or even what you appear to want.
Firstly, what I want - never explored - is a separate matter to what I think is necessary. What I think is necessary - the Labour Party to have a leader and one with stated properties - has obvious rationale that probably shouldn't need to be explained. If you can accept, and you should, that Labour lost the election in large part because of the unpopularity of Corbyn as a person and leader, rather than Labour as a party or proposition, then you already have a big chunk of the evidence. You can argue something about how Labour is not the answer to any of this, and that's fine, but take a look upwards at the thread title and remember what we're meant to be discussing in this context.
 
Hundreds of thousands of people signed up, a lot of whom hadn't been involved in anything before or who didn't (maybe still don't) view their involvement as political 'action' so much as just doing stuff in their community - although both build the same networks. Some will do one thing, others will do another, blanket pessimism like yours there is meaningless.
I agree with Serge Forward in principle and never entertained the idea of joining Labour. Same time, where we are at isn't the moment for unambiguous 'fuck that, it was shit' statements. After everybody gets through this, I'd hope there might be at least a recognition of bottom up community organising from the Labour left, something to build on, something to go beyond the current failed model.

But it has to be recognised that the Corbyn/Labour left model of activism was little more than 'being a Labour left'. That might mean lots of campaigning, lots of stuff (of course for most of the several hundred thousand members, it didn't mean that even). It was doing Labour defined politics, wanting people to join and participate (even if individuals did stuff separately that wasn't 'badged' by Labour). It's essentially an inert form of politics, being a political party - no more, no less. But you don't 'engage with' working class communities by campaigning in them.

edit: as said much better by Smokeandsteam in 543
 
ok, fair enough, I’m sure she’s intelligent. She’s very wooden, scripted and uninspiring though. Can’t see her having mass appeal. Or any appeal beyond momentum tbh.

I am waiting to hear what RLB has to say tbf. She has appeared quite wooden and charisma free previously but, like with the other runners and riders, we really need to hear what they’ve learnt from the experience of last week and how they’d change the Party and what they’d keep.

Stewards in Unite normally get the chance to attend a meeting where the candidates set their stall out to us. Despite the gigantic flaws in our union and the conservative layer that controls everything, these events often allow you to look these people in the eye and form a view.
 
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