where is it unreasonable to fly to?

[bluestreak]

the recent bickering about flying has led me to this question:

where is it unreasonable, in your OPINION, to fly?

in my lifetime i've flown to four seperate places - austria on holiday, seattle working, new york on holiday, and ireland for a wedding.

i don't feel that any of the first three are unjustified. the first was our first ever proper family holiday and the first time i'd been on a plane. i was 17. the seattle job couldn't have been done anywhere else, new york i was out there staying with a friend. i don't think that i have anything to answer for there. however, i did feel weird morally about flying to ireland. however when it came down to it, the last time i went to ireland we drove and added basically a day each side to the journey. the flights were cheaper than the petrol costs too, let alone an extra two days off work. but still, the west coast of ireland is still fairly close in this day and age.

now, it would be nice if this couldn't turn into a bunfight - we all ahve differing moral standards and reasons for flying. i just want to know where your line is. we'll leave the judgements and wild allegations for another day, perhaps?

 

[max_freakout]

the supermarket

 

[editor]

For me, it's anywhere in mainland UK and anywhere in Europe that can't be reached by train in under, say, 10-12 hours. And I'd probably look at getting a boat for some trips, although I don't get on too well with being stuck on a ship for hours on end.

 

[max_freakout]

but trains are so ridiculously expensive compared to flying!

 

[Kanda]

Anywhere I can't drive to in 8 hours.

 

[Blagsta]

I really don't have a problem with ordinary folk flying on holiday once or twice a year. Frequent business flyers I do have a problem with.

 

[jæd]

Depends... For work its anywhere that's more than three hours by train. For holidays it depends if I want to take the time to see the countryside... (ie, in October I'm flying to LA, and then taking a four hour drive to a friends wedding because I want to see what that side of the US looks like)

(Although once I had an eccentric, train loving boss so I went from Geneva to Prague at their expense...)

 

[robotsimon]

I'm trying not to fly at all (not that I ever have done so that much) - last time I flew was to Morocco 2 1/2 years ago. I never have to travel for work so that's not a problem and there are more than enough places for me to go on holiday in the UK and Europe.

That said, I do normally drive for holidays (with 2 of us in the car) rather than take the train which I know is not the most environmentally sound way to travel. It does take longer but I treat the journey to and from as part of the holiday.

In answer to the original question, I suppose it's unreasonable to fly anywhere in the UK or to anywhere you can easily get the train/drive to. However, I understand some people don't have the luxury of time (or money - it is often cheaper to fly) to be able to do that.

Personally, I think flying anywhere long haul for your own pleasure is a pretty selfish thing to do. Nobody needs to go on holiday to Thailand or wherever, especially if they'll just be sitting around on a beach - plenty of beaches in Europe. And a lot of people who otherwise lead quite low-impact lives seem happy to jet off travelling.

 

[CyberRose]

IMO, it's always reasonable to fly when it's cheaper than anything else, no matter where you fly to. I'm not rich enough to care that much about the environment!

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Personally, I think flying anywhere long haul for your own pleasure is a pretty selfish thing to do. Nobody needs to go on holiday to Thailand or wherever, especially if they'll just be sitting around on a beach - plenty of beaches in Europe. And a lot of people who otherwise lead quite low-impact lives seem happy to jet off travelling.

Maybe they like the crystal clear water of Southeast Asia, maybe they like how green the country is, maybe they like the food. Maybe the weather in October is better than the weather in most of Europe


and I don't care if it's selfish to fly for my own pleasure. Who's pleasure should I fly for then?

 

[stat]

but trains are so ridiculously expensive compared to flying!

I joined my girlfriend's parents in geneva for a city-break in june. I got the eurostar to paris, then changed and got the TGV direct to geneva. I left london in the morning, and was in geneva by the (late) afternoon, which included a lovely cafe lunch in Paris with my girlfriend. Worked out at just under 100 pounds return each.

Her parents took the plane, it took about an hour less (door to door) and they didn't save much money. They arrived knackered and annoyed with a right ordeal (security, delays etc), whereas we met them at the airport well rested, having enjoyed a truly amazing trip across the french countryside.

Trains all the way!

eta: if anyone wants to spend 5 minutes before booking their plane tickets checking to see if its worthwhile getting a train instead, check out [shouts][SIZE="4"]http://www.seat61.com[/SIZE][/shouts] - it's great!

eta #2: for example, you can get a return to ireland for 52 quid: no restrictions, and you can buy it for that price on the day of travel. Sure, it might take an hour or two longer than a flight, but you get:
- amazing views
- comfortable journey
- no annoying airport crap
(http://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm)

 

[stat]

I'm not rich enough to care that much about the environment!

humanity's last words.

 

[Kanda]

Personally, I think flying anywhere long haul for your own pleasure is a pretty selfish thing to do. Nobody needs to go on holiday to Thailand or wherever, especially if they'll just be sitting around on a beach - plenty of beaches in Europe. And a lot of people who otherwise lead quite low-impact lives seem happy to jet off travelling.

Is it ok for me to go see my Father in Australia for Christmas or are we bad people for not keeping the family all in the same town/street etc?

 

[robotsimon]

Maybe they like the crystal clear water of Southeast Asia, maybe they like how green the country is, maybe they like the food. Maybe the weather in October is better than the weather in most of Europe

Maybe they do - I still think it's a pretty selfish thing to do to burn all that fuel high up in the atmosphere so you get to sit on exactly the right type of beach. Your argument could equally be used by people who prefer the comfort of driving around in a great big Bentley to drving in a smaller, fuel-efficient car.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Is it ok for me to go see my Father in Australia for Christmas or are we bad people for not keeping the family all in the same town/street etc?

How selfish of you wanting to see your parents

 

[robotsimon]

Is it ok for me to go see my Father in Australia for Christmas or are we bad people for not keeping the family all in the same town/street etc?

It's not up to me to decide whether it's ok for you to fly or not is it? The OP asked for people's opinions and I've given mine - I'm not trying to get on anyone's case.

 

[Kanda]

Well I was just wondering if you thought it would be selfish to do so

I'm not getting aggro about it, just asking the question

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Maybe they do - I still think it's a pretty selfish thing to do to burn all that fuel high up in the atmosphere so you get to sit on exactly the right type of beach. Your argument could equally be used by people who prefer the comfort of driving around in a great big Bentley to drving in a smaller, fuel-efficient car.

Maybe they like the food, maybe they like trekking through rainforests, maybe they like bird-watching, maybe they like temples, maybe they like the fact that they can afford to stay in a good hotel which they couldn't afford to do in Europe, maybe they like being away from drunken Brits for a while.


How many times have you been abroad robotsimon?


And of course, maybe they have relatives and friends they want to visit

So anyway, what about people that go to New York for a weekend? They're not going there for the nice beaches are they?

 

[jæd]

It's not up to me to decide whether it's ok for you to fly or not is it? The OP asked for people's opinions and I've given mine - I'm not trying to get on anyone's case.

So why are you telling people they're selfish for going to Thailand for a holiday...?

 

[Belushi]

I think flying is a wonderful, liberating thing, its allowed many people to see more of the world than our ancestors could only have dreamt of.

Its contribution to climate change is a concern but there are things I'd rather we sacrificed before we stop people flying.

 

[robotsimon]

Ok, I don't think you flying to see you father in Australia is an unreasonable and selfish thing to do but I do think you have to acknowledge that your flight will result in more than your fair share of carbon emissions (if you believe that explanation for climate change). However, if you were to do that journey often, I think it may become an unreasonable thing for you to do. I guess I'm lucky that my mum and dad live in Essex!

I see travelling to see family as different to travelling across the globe simply to go on holiday. If someone is in any way concerned about climate change, I don't see how they can justify flying 12,000 miles for two weeks in the sun. But, obviously, this is just my opinion, I don't lead a blameless life, I'm not singling anyone out etc etc.

 

[october_lost]

I really don't have a problem with ordinary folk flying on holiday once or twice a year. Frequent business flyers I do have a problem with.

This to me is the most common sense proposal, I cant stand the way wadical and m/c liberals are foaming at the mouth because the low wage earners amoungst us travel the only places we can afford; short haul.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Ok, I don't think you flying to see you father in Australia is an unreasonable and selfish thing to do but I do think you have to acknowledge that your flight will result in more than your fair share of carbon emissions (if you believe that explanation for climate change). However, if you were to do that journey often, I think it may become an unreasonable thing for you to do. I guess I'm lucky that my mum and dad live in Essex!

I see travelling to see family as different to travelling across the globe simply to go on holiday. If someone is in any way concerned about climate change, I don't see how they can justify flying 12,000 miles for two weeks in the sun. But, obviously, this is just my opinion, I don't lead a blameless life, I'm not singling anyone out etc etc.

So you think someone is going to travel from the UK to Australia to see their family and it's NOT going to be classed as a holiday?

What is it then - business?

 

[CyberRose]

humanity's last words.

Hey it costs money to be environmentally friendly, or to buy more ethically produced food! Money I don't have!

 

[robotsimon]

Maybe they like the food, maybe they like trekking through rainforests, maybe they like bird-watching, maybe they like temples, maybe they like the fact that they can afford to stay in a good hotel which they couldn't afford to do in Europe, maybe they like being away from drunken Brits for a while.

Fair enough, I'm sure all those things are lovely, but, PERSONALLY, I don't think they are a good enough reason to fly all that way.

How many times have you been abroad robotsimon?

Not sure what that has to do with anything but, for the record, I suppose I have been on holiday outside the UK maybe 30 times. I have only been outside of Europe once (to Morocco) and have flown the following journeys in my life (32 years)
London-Athens return (once)
London-Barcelona return (twice)
London-Amsterdam return (once)
London-Rome return (once)
London-Stockholm return (once)
London-Paris return (once)
London-Marrakesh(sp?) return (once)

Like I said I don't lead a blameless life but I haven't flown anywhere for the last couple of years.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Fair enough, I'm sure all those things are lovely, but, PERSONALLY, I don't think they are a good enough reason to fly all that way.


Not sure what that has to do with anything but, for the record, I suppose I have been on holiday outside the UK maybe 30 times. I have only been outside of Europe once (to Morocco) and have flown the following journeys in my life (32 years)
London-Athens return (once)
London-Barcelona return (twice)
London-Amsterdam return (once)
London-Rome return (once)
London-Stockholm return (once)
London-Paris return (once)
London-Marrakesh(sp?) return (once)

Like I said I don't lead a blameless life but I haven't flown anywhere for the last couple of years.

Well before I was 30 I had flown to America and back ONCE and Ireland maybe 5 times. I had also been to Amsterdam but I went by coach and ferry.

 

[spanglechick]

Hey it costs money to be environmentally friendly, or to buy more ethically produced food! Money I don't have!

[devil's advocate.]If money's tight you could holiday closer to home [/devil's advocate]

 

[-JUMBO-]

the recent bickering about flying has led me to this question:

where is it unreasonable, in your OPINION, to fly?

Nowhere is unreasonable. And why are you bothered?

I would fly somewhere if it was cheaper than travelling by car or train and was more than 3 hours by car.

 

[CyberRose]

[devil's advocate.]If money's tight you could holiday closer to home [/devil's advocate]

OK! I'll book my flights to Blackpool right away!

Flying to Europe is no problem if you book it in advance. I don't really like to, or can afford to, pay over £100 return. No way could I get to any of those places cheaper than flying (or if I could half my holiday would be spent getting there!)

The should just surround each airport with 1 mile of forest to soak up the extra CO2 produced, and yes, as a man with dual award science GCSE, that is my qualified scientific opinion!

 

[bluestreak]

And why are you bothered?

why bother with asking any questions on a discussion board. i thought it might be interesting to compare people's personal values with regard to things like the environment vs personal expenditure / time etc.

here's the clever bit: i learnt something. i learnt that you and cyberrose don't see the environment as worth worrying about one little bit compared to your own time and money, whereas robotsimon sees most flying as unneccessary, whereas kanda thinks it's unreasonable to expect him not to fly and visit his parents in australia differently. it's interesting.

why are you bothered why i'm bothered?