What's your kind of revolution?

[Random]

Although I understand what you mean, this sounds like a society of permanent activism, and the trouble is, most people never have really wanted to be activists and likely never will.

100 years ago people argued that most working class people and women didn't want the bother of voting, or standing in elections.

 

[Random]

That's what I meant by 'with the right political will'.

And where does this 'will' stuff come from? It could be done if it could be done? That's just a tautology.

 

[LLETSA]

Hmmm. The current Labour party is useless. Entirely useless and hopelessly compromised by the Blair/Brown years still. It certianly needs to renew itself and that renewal won't come from Milliband. But, as a fairly modest thought, do you think it beyond the bounds of possibility that a Willy Brandt-style figure, promising social democratic reform that effectively returns what has been taken away in the last three decades, but does so while outlining convincing reasons why this would make economic sense, could not emerge? I see a great space for such a leader to emerge because the arguments are so strong and there are so many people to whom the arguments could be made. I'm not a pessimist like you. I see no inevitability to the continuation of the slide towards ever-greater inequality.

Nothing like this will happen, as traditional social democracy disappeared from the political landscape decades ago (subsidising the banks and printing money, as has been happening since 2008, is not social democracy). Furthermore, every Labour government has been to the right of its predecessor since the high point of social democracy in 1945. The further social democracy fades into the background, the furtther right the social democratic parties will lurch.

 

[ymu]

Not needed. When capitalism melts down again, we call its bluff and take over. It can be done – with the right political will, the entire banking system of the UK could have been nationalised a couple of years ago. Capitalists have their capital taken from them because of their own fucking stupidity.

And, crucially, it does not have to be just an organised working class either. In terms of our relations to capital, most of us are in fact working class. Take me – university educated, working in a job that most would call middle class, but in terms of my actual wage and my relation to capital, I am at exactly the same level as a skilled manual worker, that is where my rational class interest lies.

Yes. It would be ridiculous of me to claim that I'm not middle-class by conventional definitions, but our only significant possession is a rusty old boat (which is our home) and we're often broke. But we're not poor; we have the capacity to earn a decent wage, even if the occasional cash-flow crisis hits and we're not exactly rolling in it. It's an important difference; it cannot but alter your perspective on the world and what is achievable.

But for all practical and means-of-production purposes? I'm working-class. We're a non-profit two person company. We own our means of production (our laptops) and our home (our rusty old boat), which insulates us more than most. But we have to work, or we don't eat.

 

[LLETSA]

The middle-classes of the formerly super-consumer countries won't be riding this out, LLETSA. They'll be chasing technocratic and financial sector jobs all the way to BRICS. And the working-class will be forced to choose between remaining in a low wage economy with no more cheap imports, or following the jobs all the way to ... BRICS.

Most of the middle class, let alone most of the working class, will not be leaving Britain. I guarantee it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And where does this 'will' stuff come from? It could be done if it could be done? That's just a tautology.

Within a system that gives legal protection to private property, nationalising banking isn't a straightforward thing to do. But when the banks come begging for money, it is a simple matter to take them over, if that is what you want to do.

 

[LLETSA]

Not needed. When capitalism melts down again, we call its bluff and take over. It can be done – with the right political will, the entire banking system of the UK could have been nationalised a couple of years ago. Capitalists have their capital taken from them because of their own fucking stupidity.

Who are 'we'? There is little poltical agreement among the working class, let alone the necessary political organisation. And they have the guns; we don't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Once you redefine working class to include most people currently considered middle class, there is even less political agreement. But political agreement could come through an increased understanding of a shared, rational class interest.

I'm not saying your pessimism is wrong, exactly, merely that I don't share it. I don't see the same inevitability to the way the future will pan out.

 

[LLETSA]

100 years ago people argued that most working class people and women didn't want the bother of voting, or standing in elections.

I know; but there's a big difference between ticking a box every so often and having a life of permanent meetings, debates and elections. And these days it's so much easier to think fuck it and watch the telly or a DVD. Or go on the PlayStation.

 

[LLETSA]

Once you redefine working class to include most people currently considered middle class, there is even less political agreement. But political agreement could come through an increased understanding of a shared, rational class interest.

In a situation where working class political organisation has been decimated, who is going to facilitate this shared, rational class interest?

Perhaps we could get Geldof or Bono on the case?

 

[yield]

Most of the middle class, let alone most of the working class, will not be leaving Britain. I guarantee it.

LLETSA I think ymu was talking about the jobs rather than people leaving Britain?

Surprisingly agree wth everything else you said. Hear lots of politics being talked about at work with no-one intent on doing anything.

 

[audiotech]

Some people have forgotten about the massive political radicalisation that began in Seattle, that was directed against neoliberalism and war. It may have dissipated since the events of 9/11, but that's not to say its disappeared completely never to return.

 

[Kizmet]

No fate but what we make?
Till the ground beneath us starts to shake,
And the best laid plans of mice and men,
Are laid to rest under ice again.

This sprawling babel, this Babylon,
with money as it's mother tongue,
Scorched the earth with holy fires,
And pierced the skies with golden spires.
Till a fevered planet, wracked with pain,
Shivers, shudders and quakes again.

When all around us disappears,
Will we heed the lessons of 6 billion years?
For the revolution depends upon the ability,
Of humanity to display humility.

 

[ymu]

Most of the middle class, let alone most of the working class, will not be leaving Britain. I guarantee it.

Well, no. Most of them haven't left India either. What's your point, caller?

 

[Streathamite]

The type of revolution I want - a worldwide revolution of the have-nots - will, I think, eventually happen, simply becuase capitalism cannot divest itself of its' ruling classes' greed, selfishness, callousness and myopia, and eventually (and exacerbated by dwindling resources) will simply push a critical amount of the planet's population too far. Then all holy hell will break loose.

I don't think people - here or anywhere can be simply written off as apathetic, selfish, lazy etc, or even disinterested in politics: I think they are frightened, 100% disillusioned with the western world's political classes, and in need of new ideas/ideals/inspiration. Which in turn WILL come from somewhere - they always have.

As for the timescale, I'm no nostradamus, but I think at some point about 100 years hence (thanks to peak oil) there will be a global societal breakdown

 

[8115]

A genuine big society.

 

[ymu]

It would actually be a very small government. Bureaucratic costs are pretty minimal on the model I'm suggesting. It's effectively a democratic quangocracy. Quangos have been given a bad name by the tabloids, but they're rather brilliant things. If we need independent regulators, and collective purchasing to minimise costs without overpressuring the producers, and expert assessments and an independent judiciary and a police force, it's best that these roles are sub-contracted out to specialist worker-owned co-operatives providing their services at cost in return for securing well-rewarded and empowering work for themselves in perpetuity, freed of idiot management layers who know nothing about working on the shop floor, for as long as they do the job that people want them to do and provide best value options to satisfy essential 'needs'.

 

[discokermit]

my revolution would be bathed in the blood of the ruling class.

 

[ymu]

I don't see that as being necessarily incompatible with my vision.

 

[discokermit]

i also hope we get to use cool pseudonyms as well, like captain swing, ned ludd and king mob.

 

[ymu]

They'd undoubtedly be made compulsory as part of the Great Referendum (and Full Nationalisation of the 2012 Olympics) Act of September, 2011.

 

[audiotech]

my revolution would be bathed in the blood of the ruling class.

Revolution is not just about class revenge no matter how satisfying that might seem to some.

 

[discokermit]

Revolution is not just about class revenge no matter how satisfying that might seem to some.

it is for me. i will suggest a 'vengeance comittee' if the opportunity arises.

 

[Belushi]

it is for me. i will suggest a 'vengeance comittee' if the opportunity arises.

Yup. I'm only in it for the score settlling and purges.

 

[SpineyNorman]

my revolution would be bathed in the blood of the ruling class.

i also hope we get to use cool pseudonyms as well, like captain swing, ned ludd and king mob.

discokermit is bang on the money. Can I claim Captain Spiney of Norman now to avoid future disagreements? I'd also like to see a new salute based on pull my finger.

 

[Belushi]

i also hope we get to use cool pseudonyms as well, like captain swing, ned ludd and king mob.

You're stuck with discokermit I'm afraid dude.

 

[ymu]

Yup. I'm only in it for the score settlling and purges.

We will be directed by the will of the majority. I'm expecting your lot to win.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I know; but there's a big difference between ticking a box every so often and having a life of permanent meetings, debates and elections. And these days it's so much easier to think fuck it and watch the telly or a DVD. Or go on the PlayStation.

It's not that people are not capable interested in the closure/running of their local hospital/school etc, it's the lack of power/control that demotivates them. look at all the effort meetings debates and elections people put into footall, social life hobbies etc. people would quite readily redirect these effort if THEY were empowered I.M.E.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Rather than focusing on what I want as an end set-up, 'my kind of revolution is about the process, how the changes are achieved and how they are defended. Which makes this a question of what we do in the here and now, rather than a series of demands, or a programme for a future society.

WRT final goals, I think it's unlikely I'd ever see a political system I entirely endorse established, but hopefully something that I'm ok with, and that's open to change.

ymu, imo Random's right. Action for the circumstances of here and now, is the soil from which the social revolution can grow. Beyond the aim of 'people power' [wish I had a better term], it's difficult for to predict, let alone prescribe what the communards will do.

ETA. Good thread though ymu

 

[discokermit]

discokermit is bang on the money. Can I claim Captain Spiney of Norman now to avoid future disagreements? I'd also like to see a new salute based on pull my finger.

you need to drop the 'norman' bit. our french oppressors are on the list.