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What stupid shit has Trump done today?

For the hearsay bunch, the transcript is here

Read the transcript of Trump's conversation with Volodymyr Zelensky - CNNPolitics
I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine.
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Then Trump asked for the "favour"

It's very clear Trump asked directly for help to drop a political opponent in the shit.

Now, moving on to the very sus timing of withholding then releasing weapons cash to Ukraine.
 
agricola said:
There is a lot of this that is doubtful.

i) Whistle-blowers don't have to be a person who is involved in an act, they can (as here) hear about something and then blow the whistle (in fact many whistleblowers here and in the US, who have gone through the correct process and who have leaked to the press, have been people who have heard about things rather than been involved in them). This person appears to have done so properly; none of it leaked until most of the steps had been gone through.
Except it appears the rules governing the eligibility of 'hearsay evidence' appeared to have been changed only in the last few months. For what purpose, and by whom is currently being investigated at a pretty senior level.
ii) I am not sure that anyone expected Trump to release the memo, especially given that it broadly supports part of what the whistleblower said. They probably launched the enquiry in the hope that they would be able to obtain the details of the call (and remember the memo is not a complete transcript of what was in that call) and the complaint itself.
Key here is whether undue "pressure" was brought to bear. This was central to whistleblower allegation. But is not supported by transcript at all. Much less the so called 'quid pro quo' for arms that the whistleblower also alleges. Without those charges what else is there?

iii) Of course any impeachment enquiry would be based on the allegations contained in the whistleblower complaint - the memo is just a part of it.
Adam Schiff addressed the House of Representatives and simply made up what he claimed Trump said. What Schiff said, and what Trump said bore little or no relation. Without the transcript being released that exposes what Schiff said was a lie he and others would still be sticking with it. To put it another way if the transcript had come first what relevance could then be attached to the whistleblower memo?
iv) How is that damning? Even if you take away the complaint about the aid being withheld and base everything on just what was in the memo, it is the President of the US asking a foreign head of state to investigate a political rival of his. It is both pretty damning and easy to understand how wrong that is.
The issue here is that Trump was asking a foreign head of state to get to the bottom of long-standing corruption allegations surrounding a former American VP and his son that occurred in the country of said head of state. Should Biden and co be given a free pass because it happened in a foreign country and he is now (or was) standing for even higher American office? The fact that Biden junior got a job off the back of his old man's position is de facto evidence of corruption it in itself. He went on to earn even more (in a deal worth 1.5 billion) through piggy backing old man Biden in interactions in China. Even if we see Trump's motives as merely base it would be remiss of him as a politician to brush it under the carpet as the American media appear to have done.
v) No it isn't. The complaint around the "secret server" is that it prevented the details of the call being circulated to a wider audience and that was the sole reason for it being on there. If it was routinely used for that reason, Trump is going to get impeached or invalided out of office because all of it is going to come out - probably at once. Not if they are all as innocent as the transcript already released.
vi) How is this going to blow up in Democrat faces? Is Trump suddenly going to produce the real transcript of the call that is completely at variance to what the memo says he said?
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It goes to a liberal sense of entitlement. 'We know we're right on everything, but can't be bothered with convincing the stupid electorate - when its quicker and easier to do it through impeachment' - or in this case as there is zero chance of delivering on it simply smearing a political rival in the run up to election year. So with Mueller/Kavanaugh/Ukraine that will make it three strikes. That's how it blows up in Democrat faces.
 
The Trump team is going to try to spin this as power-crazed socialists trying to steal his glorious 2016 victory but the process seems democratic enough - House lawmakers who campaigned on holding Trump to account are probably going to send articles of impeachment to the Senate, which won't be removing him from office unless the trial hears evidence strong enough to convince around 20 Republicans.

Polls now show around 75% of Democratic voters - and 13% of Republicans - in favour of impeachment, so Democratic lawmakers voting against impeachment could also be seen as thwarting the will of the people.
 
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I've been away from t'interwebs for a few weeks and am a bit baffled: why is what Trump's supposed to have done re asking the Ukrainians for dirt on Biden junior (who isn't even standing) even worse than asking Russians for dirt on H Clinton? Is it on account of granting/withholding military aid, and is that such a game-changer, or am I missing something else?
 
bluescreen said:
I've been away from t'interwebs for a few weeks and am a bit baffled: why is what Trump's supposed to have done re asking the Ukrainians for dirt on Biden junior (who isn't even standing) even worse than asking Russians for dirt on H Clinton? Is it on account of granting/withholding military aid, and is that such a game-changer, or am I missing something else?
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He wasn't president when he asked Russia for dirt on Clinton. So couldn't be impeached then.
 
fishfinger said:
He wasn't president when he asked Russia for dirt on Clinton. So couldn't be impeached then.
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That must be it. I'm still baffled though. Why isn't appalling if a candidate does it?
ISTR that people thought it was appalling, but nothing happened. Just as nothing will happen now - can't see a majority in the Senate for impeachment. Not yet/
 
bluescreen said:
That must be it. I'm still baffled though. Why isn't appalling if a candidate does it?
ISTR that people thought it was appalling, but nothing happened. Just as nothing will happen now - can't see a majority in the Senate for impeachment. Not yet/
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The Mueller report looked at it. I suggest you read that (at least read the 2 summaries). This time, there has been a whistle-blower accusation of multiple violations of the oath of office. Trump then released a partial transcript of the call to Zelensky, which confirms the whistle-blower's account of the call.
 
bluescreen said:
That must be it. I'm still baffled though. Why isn't appalling if a candidate does it?
ISTR that people thought it was appalling, but nothing happened. Just as nothing will happen now - can't see a majority in the Senate for impeachment. Not yet/
Click to expand...


Before, Trump had not sworn to uphold the constitution.
This time, he has sworn to follow the rules set out.
 
fishfinger said:
The Mueller report looked at it. I suggest you read that (at least read the 2 summaries). This time, there has been a whistle-blower accusation of multiple violations of the oath of office. Trump then released a partial transcript of the call to Zelensky, which confirms the whistle-blower's account of the call.
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As I said, I've been offline for a few weeks, but picked up the generalities. Will have to check all that out, thanks.
Still kind of baffled that the call to Zelensky was worse than the call to Russia generally to release data on Clinton, though I get that it didn't actually break some kind of Presidential oath.
 
bluescreen said:
Anyway - I thought the Mueller report cleared him? (Obvs need to read more than newspaper headlines on that.)
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It did not clear him of anything. Merely stating that there was insufficient evidence to show conspiracy (in part due to the various obstructions of justice). There are at least 10 incidences of Trump obstructing justice (some of which could be grounds for impeachment) that are documented in the Mueller report.
 
fishfinger said:
It did not clear him of anything. Merely stating that there was insufficient evidence to show conspiracy (in part due to the various obstructions of justice). There are at least 10 incidences of Trump obstructing justice (some of which could be grounds for impeachment) that are documented in the Mueller report.
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Ah yes, it's coming back to me. (Must check it out!)
But it doesn't really matter what the truth is if he can convince his base of his version. That's what it's down to, now, isn't it, superior media manipulation.
 
bluescreen said:
Ah yes, it's coming back to me. (Must check it out!)
But it doesn't really matter what the truth is if he can convince his base of his version. That's what it's down to, now, isn't it, superior media manipulation.
Click to expand...
When it comes to impeachment, he's going to need to keep the Republican senators onside. It is them, not the electorate, who get to vote to impeach. Of course, there will be plenty of spin and general disinfo to get the base to pressure the Republicans.
 
fishfinger said:
When it comes to impeachment, he's going to need to keep the Republican senators onside. It is them, not the electorate, who get to vote to impeach. Of course, there will be plenty of spin and general disinfo to get the base to pressure the Republicans.
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Can't see a majority of the Senate voting for it unless something else even worse happens to threaten them existentially.
 
We don't know what's in the rest of the whistle-blower's report yet. There are reportedly, calls to Putin and other presidents/leaders which appear to have been misfiled in the super secret code word server.
 
fishfinger said:
We don't know what's in the rest of the whistle-blower's report yet. There are reportedly, calls to Putin and other presidents/leaders which appear to have been misfiled in the super secret code word server.
Click to expand...
And does any of that even matter? (Part of me can't believe I'm typing this, the other part says, yeah, whatever, this is what passes for normal in a US President these days but no one would have stood for it if Obama behaved like this.)
 
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