What Now for the BNP?

[LLETSA]

What you say IS your 'critique' Letsa, even with all its theoretical and empirical shortcomings.

Might be because I'm neither a theoretician nor an empiricist.

Other than that, everybody other than those who don't want to can see that what I'm saying is correct.

 

[Red Storm]

I up your 5 years with 20! Thats been the IWCA modus operandi for approx 20 YEARS! Achieving fek all in the process Thats cos its ultra left shite btw regardless of the better things within it.

I don't think you can denounce the IWCA as 'ultra-left'. Furthermore, considering how small they were they managed to achieve results in local elections which would make the trotskyist left have a wet dream. Most on the far left either ignored the IWCA's results or said they weren't relevant because they wasn't a socialist vote.

I'm just waiting for a new Black Panther Party of Self Defence (with every reference to black changed to working class, except in the name).

 

[intersol32]

I don't think you can denounce the IWCA as 'ultra-left'. Furthermore, considering how small they were they managed to achieve results in local elections which would make the trotskyist left have a wet dream. Most on the far left either ignored the IWCA's results or said they weren't relevant because they wasn't a socialist vote.

I'm just waiting for a new Black Panther Party of Self Defence (with every reference to black changed to working class, except in the name).

Agreed the IWCA's impact was limited, but it wasn't because their strategy or arguments were ill conceived. It was primarily because those involved in the organisation were small in number. The dialogue that was being called for to adopt this strategy, and to point out the problems that were likely to arise in working class areas that had no representation, was effectively shouted down by the rest of the left.

In essence it proved that the left had become increasingly redundant. But to accept that the IWCA (and before that RA) were correct, the left had to accept that its analysis for the past 20 years had been completely and utterly wrong. Not being able to wake up and adopt the necessary self-criticism is still leading them into the abyss.

Just as a brief example of its moronic mindset one only has to look at the rightward shift mainstream politics has taken (as Joe pointed out earlier), and the reaction adopted by the left. Tomorrow night in Leicester there will be a meeting held by the UAF/SWP to focus on the upcoming proposed EDL march through the city. Some of the local football casuals with EDL links have said they'll turn up to the event to "air their views". Which interestingly will be the first time in a long time that the SWP have ever had to deal with a contingent audience from the working class.

If the whole meeting doesn't explode into uproar, it will not be due to groups like the SWP finally accepting that the weakness of their political opposition is what has ultimately given rise to such organizations like the EDL.

Perhaps the left should have been present on those housing estates where many EDL or BNP members come from? Perhaps if they'd thought of a decent local strategy to deal with the kind of problems that Fascism thrives upon, they'd have been able to embed themselves within the community as a radical political alternative.

Had this happened the lads that are likely to turn up tomorrow night would have instead been there providing security for the event, rather than looking to turn it over!

 

[Red Storm]

Agreed the IWCA's impact was limited, but it wasn't because their strategy or arguments were ill conceived. It was primarily because those involved in the organisation were small in number. The dialogue that was being called for to adopt this strategy, and to point out the problems that were likely to arise in working class areas that had no representation, was effectively shouted down by the rest of the left.

That was the point I was making. I didn't mean anything about the IWCA's political thought.

In essence it proved that the left had become increasingly redundant. But to accept that the IWCA (and before that RA) were correct, the left had to accept that its analysis for the past 20 years had been completely and utterly wrong. Not being able to wake up and adopt the necessary self-criticism is still leading them into the abyss.

Just as a brief example of its moronic mindset one only has to look at the rightward shift mainstream politics has taken (as Joe pointed out earlier), and the reaction adopted by the left. Tomorrow night in Leicester there will be a meeting held by the UAF/SWP to focus on the upcoming proposed EDL march through the city. Some of the local football casuals with EDL links have said they'll turn up to the event to "air their views". Which interestingly will be the first time in a long time that the SWP have ever had to deal with a contingent audience from the working class.

If the whole meeting doesn't explode into uproar, it will not be due to groups like the SWP finally accepting that the weakness of their political opposition is what has ultimately given rise to such organizations like the EDL.

Perhaps the left should have been present on those housing estates where many EDL or BNP members come from? Perhaps if they'd thought of a decent local strategy to deal with the kind of problems that Fascism thrives upon, they'd have been able to embed themselves within the community as a radical political alternative.

Had this happened the lads that are likely to turn up tomorrow night would have instead been there providing security for the event, rather than looking to turn it over!

I'm not 100% in agreement with the IWCA's thought but I think this analysis is largely correct.

 

[The39thStep]

Don't waste your time debating with LLETSA, Red Storm, like Private Fraser in Dad's Army the only line he ever really has is "WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOMED". Utter defeatism and pessimism isn't a political viewpoint it is just the sad outlook of the utterly defeated.

Better to concentrate on being part of the undoubted national and international rising tide of resistance to the capitalist crisis than waste time with the barroom bores who always claim to have "done it all" "seen it All" , and "know" any sort of radical action is pointless. Then you discover they seldom actually left the pub even in their supposed heyday !

Equally there was Corporal Jones coming up with solutions that might have been fine 40 years ago but were ultimately out of date. Its not always the case but joining the 'national and international rising tide of resistance 'and the need for a national and internalist socialist solution do remind me of the utter triumphalism and optimism of my initially starry eyed days in SWP in the 70s.

 

[The39thStep]

I up your 5 years with 20! Thats been the IWCA modus operandi for approx 20 YEARS! Achieving fek all in the process Thats cos its ultra left shite btw regardless of the better things within it.

why didn't we listen to you 20 years ago?

 

[past caring]

Something to do with prophets not being honoured in their own land, doubtless.

 

[ayatollah]

Agreed the IWCA's impact was limited, but it wasn't because their strategy or arguments were ill conceived. It was primarily because those involved in the organisation were small in number. The dialogue that was being called for to adopt this strategy, and to point out the problems that were likely to arise in working class areas that had no representation, was effectively shouted down by the rest of the left.

In essence it proved that the left had become increasingly redundant. But to accept that the IWCA (and before that RA) were correct, the left had to accept that its analysis for the past 20 years had been completely and utterly wrong. Not being able to wake up and adopt the necessary self-criticism is still leading them into the abyss.

Just as a brief example of its moronic mindset one only has to look at the rightward shift mainstream politics has taken (as Joe pointed out earlier), and the reaction adopted by the left. Tomorrow night in Leicester there will be a meeting held by the UAF/SWP to focus on the upcoming proposed EDL march through the city. Some of the local football casuals with EDL links have said they'll turn up to the event to "air their views". Which interestingly will be the first time in a long time that the SWP have ever had to deal with a contingent audience from the working class.

If the whole meeting doesn't explode into uproar, it will not be due to groups like the SWP finally accepting that the weakness of their political opposition is what has ultimately given rise to such organizations like the EDL.

Perhaps the left should have been present on those housing estates where many EDL or BNP members come from? Perhaps if they'd thought of a decent local strategy to deal with the kind of problems that Fascism thrives upon, they'd have been able to embed themselves within the community as a radical political alternative.

Had this happened the lads that are likely to turn up tomorrow night would have instead been there providing security for the event, rather than looking to turn it over!

No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .

The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.

Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?

 

[Red Storm]

No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .

The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.

Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?

I agree that socialism is the only solution to capitalism. But where I half agree with the others is that I don't see any radical left wing organisation as capable of bringing in large numbers of working class people. Not because of their politics but because of their method of putting their message out.

It can not be solely votes which are won but also activists to participate in the politics of working class communitees.

Do you think the working class from below will push to create a new organisation or change existing insitutions of the labour movement?

 

[past caring]

I agree that socialism is the only solution to capitalism. But where I half agree with the others is that I don't see any radical left wing organisation as capable of bringing in large numbers of working class people. Not because of their politics but because of their method of putting their message out.

Part of the reason that I and others don't respond in detail as much as perhaps we ought to is that some of these debates have been done to death , 5, 6 and 7 years back on here. I know that neither you nor ayatollah were on here at the time, but it is difficult to revisit some of the same old ground. I'll try when I have time in the next few days to maybe post links yo some of the older threads if I can find them.....

Anyway, for now....

The problem is not just the way that left wing groups put their message out - it is their politics. Because the two are inextricably linked. The politics of Leninism - crystallised perhaps in the notion that the working class by itself is capable of no more than a "trade union consciousness" and requires a "socialist consciousness" to be brought to it from without by the intelligensia (i.e. middle-class intellectuals) - has proved to be an utter poison and represents the historic defeat of the kind of communism fought for in the Ist International. It gives carte-blanche for the leadership of lefty groups to patronise and belittle, to say in effect to the membership and the wider working class "We know best". It doesn't just reinforce the natural tendencies of such individuals, it makes such behaviour almost a political duty.

It's not everything, by far, but it is a major reason for the lack of audience and a major reason for the inability to hold onto to working class recruits.

 

[dennisr]

Anyway, for now....

The problem is not just the way that left wing groups put their message out - it is their politics. Because the two are inextricably linked. The politics of Leninism - crystallised perhaps in the notion that the working class by itself is capable of no more than a "trade union consciousness" and requires a "socialist consciousness" to be brought to it from without by the intelligensia (i.e. middle-class intellectuals) - has proved to be an utter poison and represents the historic defeat of the kind of communism fought for in the Ist International. It gives carte-blanche for the leadership of lefty groups to patronise and belittle, to say in effect to the membership and the wider working class "We know best". It doesn't just reinforce the natural tendencies of such individuals, it makes such behaviour almost a political duty.

Thats the version of "Leninism" you were taught in the SWP though PC

 

[past caring]

It's the version of Leninism I've seen everywhere in practise - yes, of course, my most intimate experience of it was in the swerpers, but I've worked with individuals in other left groups plenty, including the London SA steering committee, for my sins.

I am not wrong in suggesting that Lenin argued that, though, am I?

Do you take the view that other (revolutionary) left groups weren't/aren't infected by that way of operating? Is it just the SP (in the UK) that is immune? If you do believe it to be immune, then why so? On the basis of what theoretical underpinning - a rejection of that aspect of Lenin's politics or a different interpretation? What organisational mechanisms/structures flow from that rejection or different interpretation?

 

[LLETSA]

ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.

Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?

As somebody has said above, these assumptions are more articles of faith than any kind of analysis. Who would have thought in, say, the mid-1970s that within thirty years social democracy would be dead in all but name, inequality growing at a rate not seen for a century, Communist rule history almost everywhere, any potential government that refuses to endorse capital's strategies effectively shut out of power throughout most of the world, labour movements a shadow of their former selves throughout the West and beyond, neo-fascism the natural choice for millions of workers across Europe and the left disorientated as never before even in the deepest crisis of capitalism for decades? In this context, Stalinism is the last thing anybody need worry about, and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the deepening crisis will cause millions to embrace an ideology that arose in an era that looked quite different in almost every respect, not least in its sunny outlook for the world which today's looming monsters (dwindling natural resources, nuclear weapons proliferation, unstoppable climate change, generalised and growing economic crisis threatening to spin out of control while immune to all economic and political nostrums etc etc) give the lie to. In today's context there is no reason whatsoever to assume that 'the socialist message' will strike a chord with sufficient numbers of people, particularly when that message has become both dated and confused, and the mass media now drums other messages into the heads of everybody twenty-four hours a day. The fact that fascists and others also have no answers is really neither here nor there. Of course resistance isn't futile, but it seems unlikely to go beyond mere protest and the occasional small-scale victory, particularly as 'the left' doesn't really have any coherent answers and no way of gaining power, as we see in the Middle East where workers and students do the protesting and the dying (unclear as to what they're actually fighting for other than 'democracy') while others reap the benefit.

Optimism and pessimism don't really come into it. The times are what they are-you just have to fucking get on with it.

 

[The39thStep]

Anyone else not convinced that 'the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism.' as Ayotollah argued?

 

[Red Storm]

Anyone else not convinced that 'the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism.' as Ayotollah argued?

Has the left, albeit slowly, not grown since 2007? I certainly think it has. When I joined the SP in 2006 there was five of us in Manchester branch which grew to about 20 by the time I left in mid/2008.

Plus Ireland's ULA did fairly well at the elections.

I do believe that the crisis will push people towards socialism however it's what the left does with that which is key. I think the far left, the unions and labour is failing to capitalise on it.

 

[Red Storm]

That above arguments really weak but I've only just got up. I do think the left has experienced growth howeer

 

[The39thStep]

That above arguments really weak but I've only just got up. I do think the left has experienced growth howeer

Arguements were a bit but I was impressed with the impact you had on the growth of Manchester SP.

Its nearly luchtime so get a brew, have a wash and have another think. If the crisis is pushing people towards socialism we don't really need the far left, unions and labour to pull them away from it do we. What is their role then?

 

[Red Storm]

Arguements were a bit but I was impressed with the impact you had on the growth of Manchester SP.

Its nearly luchtime so get a brew, have a wash and have another think. If the crisis is pushing people towards socialism we don't really need the far left, unions and labour to pull them away from it do we. What is their role then?

Whoa. I didn't say the growth was down to me. Far from it. I think it was because the Manchester SP branch was able to connect with working class people so it gained a really good group. Salford eventually got its own branch due to growth.

I unfortunately don't have time to ponder what you ask, as it is exam time. I don't think any current far left organisations can utilise a growth in working class support but I do think the Unions can. Who knows. I certainly don't have the answers nor can I be arsed trying to implement an answer but I certainly hope there are people willing to give up large portions of their life to do so.

 

[LLETSA]

I do think the left has experienced growth howeer

I suppose it's more than you can say for the economy.

 

[LLETSA]

Whoa. I didn't say the growth was down to me. Far from it. I think it was because the Manchester SP branch was able to connect with working class people so it gained a really good group. Salford eventually got its own branch due to growth.

I unfortunately don't have time to ponder what you ask, as it is exam time. I don't think any current far left organisations can utilise a growth in working class support but I do think the Unions can. Who knows. I certainly don't have the answers nor can I be arsed trying to implement an answer but I certainly hope there are people willing to give up large portions of their life to do so.

The crisis of the working class movement goes deeper than mere numbers, though.

 

[Red Storm]

.

 

[Red Storm]

On Manchester SP. The working class members of the branch formed a section of Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance (plus others from other bits) and MAFA were able to bring in even more working class people into working class politics. All a chain.

LLETSA, how does it go deeper?

 

[The39thStep]

Whoa. I didn't say the growth was down to me. Far from it. I think it was because the Manchester SP branch was able to connect with working class people so it gained a really good group. Salford eventually got its own branch due to growth.

I unfortunately don't have time to ponder what you ask, as it is exam time. I don't think any current far left organisations can utilise a growth in working class support but I do think the Unions can. Who knows. I certainly don't have the answers nor can I be arsed trying to implement an answer but I certainly hope there are people willing to give up large portions of their life to do so.

I was joking when I implied the growth was down to you.

 

[Red Storm]

I was joking when I implied the growth was down to you.

I don't really know how to react to such an ambiguous and unnecessary insult.

 

[The39thStep]

Hate to say it but I moved up to manchester in the mid 80s the left was a lot lot bigger. Withington, Longsight/Gorton branches of the Swp had about thirty plus members in each and north manchester about fourty.Take in the other GM branches and there would have been over 250.

The CP probably had about 100 or more with a larger layer of passive supporters.

Miklitant had about five members in Withington alone in the 80s but grew their GM organisation bigger from both Liverpool and the poll tax before collapsing after the split.

The SLP had a relatively short but impressive growth spell. Red Action had around 20-30. Then there was the smaller trot groups like Socialist Organgrinder, Workers Power.

 

[The39thStep]

I don't really know how to react to such an ambiguous and unnecessary insult.

Men make history but not necessarily in the circumstances of their own choosing.

Now get back to your revising

 

[Red Storm]

Hate to say it but I moved up to manchester in the mid 80s the left was a lot lot bigger. Withington, Longsight/Gorton branches of the Swp had about thirty plus members in each and north manchester about fourty.Take in the other GM branches and there would have been over 250.

The CP probably had about 100 or more with a larger layer of passive supporters.

Miklitant had about five members in Withington alone in the 80s but grew their GM organisation bigger from both Liverpool and the poll tax before collapsing after the split.

The SLP had a relatively short but impressive growth spell. Red Action had around 20-30. Then there was the smaller trot groups like Socialist Organgrinder, Workers Power.

You do realise that it's not the 80s don't you?

Btw father christmas isn't real either.

 

[The39thStep]

You do realise that it's not the 80s don't you?

Btw father christmas isn't real either.

That is my point. I am still waiting for some evidence that the crisis is pushing people towards socialism as well.

 

[Red Storm]

That is my point. I am still waiting for some evidence that the crisis is pushing people towards socialism as well.

I think there is electoral evidence in the Ireland.

I think it would be difficult to prove in the UK because the left does so badly in elections.

 

[Joe Reilly]

No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .

The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation...

The point is that euro-nationalism properly applied uses marxist strategies for nationalist ends. As the FN put in the early 1980's 'we're on the landings no one else is'. Still true.

In fact the BNP do attempt to address through their own prism naturally, local grievances. But do they deliver you ask?

The point that has been made repeatedly is that in absence of an alternative, they don't have to. As Randall P Mc Murphy put it: 'At least I tried! At least I did that.'

'Only socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation?'

Really? Where's that then?

And who does it offer this coherent model to?

Certainly not the people 'on the landings'.

In summary the BNP's problems are essentially organisational in nature. The Left's problems are however, tactical, strategical, ideological and philosophical...and as past caring pointed out some way back, until the Left as a whole comes to terms with what went wrong and when, there never will be a renaissance.

The first hurdle is to actually come to terms with the fact that for the Left as a whole internationally a Rubicon does exist, that it must be located, and after appropriate discussion - it must be crossed.