The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You were on here last year telling us that the North East was pretty much an anti fascist free zone due to autonomous anti fascism, the miners gala and bookfairs.
What Now for the BNP?
- Thread starter intersol32
- Start date
You were on here last year telling us that the North East was pretty much an anti fascist free zone due to autonomous anti fascism, the miners gala and bookfairs.
The Black Hand
Unclean
So the right wing hegemony in the UK is strong, you're not telling us anything other than the bleeding obvious.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Poor butch, he tries soooo hard.
I think it was a 'left' demo, a contradictory manifestation though it was, its a mistake to think that the right were on that demo (though of course there may have been spotters). The BNP are going backwards fast in the NE, they do not exist other than in your imagination on an everyday level.
Just cos things are not going to a leftist or @ grouping at present doesn't mean critical mass won't be reached at some point. Not that the political situation is great, I try to keep things objective, and in the mean time continue to educate, agitate and organise.
Whilst old grudge bearing bastards like me simply chortle with delight at the complete meltdown of the BNP - ALL that hard , community based, work pissed up the wall through internal squabbles, doctrinal differences, rival meglamanias, corruption, being set up by the establishment for a public lynching (Question Time)... Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years.
Noone doubts that as the world crisis deepens from now on the rising tide of working class anger at the austerity measures imposed by capitalism in the UK and worldwide can go a number of ways - but the rising tide of working class defensive response to these attacks IS an opportunity for the Left, in the UK just as much as the fascists -- more so in fact as they have NO real action based response to most of the capitalist attacks other than racist/nationalist scapegoatism. Scapegoatism is obviously a good'n as a tactic historically, but it doesn't help fight the cuts - wages, pensions, or social services - so plenty of workers are for the first time in decades open to the analysis and tactics of the Left.
Time to lose that misplaced "grudging admiration" for the strategy and growth of the BNP - they blew it big time, and I think in the UK they always will. The next significant/electoral threat from the Right in the future is likely to "blindside " us from an unexpected organisational,populist, direction, rather than from the old lags of the Nazi grouplets I suspect. Which could well leave the fascist activists and hangers on fruitlessly engaging in more, and nastier, EDL style ,street activity as their national irrelevance becomes clear. In the meantime the time is opportune for the Left.
Noone doubts that as the world crisis deepens from now on the rising tide of working class anger at the austerity measures imposed by capitalism in the UK and worldwide can go a number of ways - but the rising tide of working class defensive response to these attacks IS an opportunity for the Left, in the UK just as much as the fascists -- more so in fact as they have NO real action based response to most of the capitalist attacks other than racist/nationalist scapegoatism. Scapegoatism is obviously a good'n as a tactic historically, but it doesn't help fight the cuts - wages, pensions, or social services - so plenty of workers are for the first time in decades open to the analysis and tactics of the Left.
Time to lose that misplaced "grudging admiration" for the strategy and growth of the BNP - they blew it big time, and I think in the UK they always will. The next significant/electoral threat from the Right in the future is likely to "blindside " us from an unexpected organisational,populist, direction, rather than from the old lags of the Nazi grouplets I suspect. Which could well leave the fascist activists and hangers on fruitlessly engaging in more, and nastier, EDL style ,street activity as their national irrelevance becomes clear. In the meantime the time is opportune for the Left.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
steps, it was the way he handled it as well. he looked like he didnt know what he was doing. however, the enquiries that followed are often only short term and many do not renew their membership when they realise that the bnp dont actually do much. the same happened with BUF after the olympia brawl. they were referred as 'july joiners' or something.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Actually many people felt that Griffin was bullied on Question Time and that the show departed from its normal format so that the pother panelists could gang up. he may have looked like to you that he didn't know what he was doing but the BNP went to poll over half a million votes and increased their vote in Barking.
intersol32
Well-Known Member
Regardless. It's obvious that the BNP have dropped the ball. They were given a sniff of power through their councillors and instead just cocked it up. It's already been stated that most of those elected just didn't know what they were doing, didn't bother to turn up to council meetings or (in one instance) run up expenses of thousands by constantly making requests under the Freedom of Information Act (mainly trying to make connections between Black people and AIDS, Asians and Crime etc etc). Totally fucking useless.
But the important thing about this, is that despite all the crowing, it essentially had nothing to do with the actions of the so-called left.
Even if (as I stated earlier) Question Time was a balls-up, and as steps states there was an actual increase in enquiries to the party and a boost to their vote it was likely a signifier of the desperation of the working class in many areas. Certainly a section of the populace that's currently looking for an alternative (possibly radical) voice in their community.
This whole thing should maybe be a wake up call to the left, that there's potential to step into that space. But of course it's also going to depend on how serious people are. The tendency on the left is for many of its people to be "from the working class...but not of the working class". Too many see themselves as enlightened morally and academically, but stand back from actually engaging ordinary people unless they get their fucking hands dirty.
I remember at a meeting years ago in the midlands when I raised the issue about the problems on a nearby housing estate, stating the people there had complained there was an infestation of rats. A member of one of the Anarchist groups piped up "God! Well, you needn't think me and my boyfriend will be running around after rats!".
Which I think probably says it all. Many of them have excelled Lenin, Marx and Trotsky with the amount of theoretical leaflets and booklets they've put out. But if the old fella next door has a problem with the boiler you can pretty much forget it.
Likewise if the BNP were to turn up and get it sorted or actually pledge to help anyone, the only reply from the left is to stage a picket in the town center telling everyone "don't vote for a fascist".
I'm still wondering where the Fash will take it from here, but it's likely given the performance of this weak opposition that they'll be able to turn it around and come in for a counter attack within the not too distant future. Maybe because in the meantime 70% of the left are still hoping there'll be a "decent leader emerging from the Labour Party at some point".
But the important thing about this, is that despite all the crowing, it essentially had nothing to do with the actions of the so-called left.
Even if (as I stated earlier) Question Time was a balls-up, and as steps states there was an actual increase in enquiries to the party and a boost to their vote it was likely a signifier of the desperation of the working class in many areas. Certainly a section of the populace that's currently looking for an alternative (possibly radical) voice in their community.
This whole thing should maybe be a wake up call to the left, that there's potential to step into that space. But of course it's also going to depend on how serious people are. The tendency on the left is for many of its people to be "from the working class...but not of the working class". Too many see themselves as enlightened morally and academically, but stand back from actually engaging ordinary people unless they get their fucking hands dirty.
I remember at a meeting years ago in the midlands when I raised the issue about the problems on a nearby housing estate, stating the people there had complained there was an infestation of rats. A member of one of the Anarchist groups piped up "God! Well, you needn't think me and my boyfriend will be running around after rats!".
Which I think probably says it all. Many of them have excelled Lenin, Marx and Trotsky with the amount of theoretical leaflets and booklets they've put out. But if the old fella next door has a problem with the boiler you can pretty much forget it.
Likewise if the BNP were to turn up and get it sorted or actually pledge to help anyone, the only reply from the left is to stage a picket in the town center telling everyone "don't vote for a fascist".
I'm still wondering where the Fash will take it from here, but it's likely given the performance of this weak opposition that they'll be able to turn it around and come in for a counter attack within the not too distant future. Maybe because in the meantime 70% of the left are still hoping there'll be a "decent leader emerging from the Labour Party at some point".
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
a lot of posters on VNNuk and shirtfront were very critical of griffin as well and the anti-griffclops lobby are still on about it. cant deny the vote increase but they have lost plenty of councillors sonce thru either incompetence, laziness or disillusionment.
Stormfront and VNN are hardly representative of your average BNP voter.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
no but they tend to reflect the different strands of 'thought' in fash circles. as mentioned somewhere else, the voters and nazi posters are not the same thing but the latter can be useful for determining the drift of BNP politics.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Same as saying that The Flat Earth Society represent sa strand of science. VNN has three people and a dog on it. Stormfront is just a rest home for internet Nazis, cobweb anti fascists and the state. The total number of hard core Nazis must only be about two to three hundred in the entire country.
The BNP wouldn't regard either site as an audience that they would be interested or influenced by.
1%er
Well-Known Member
You raise some interesting points.
I read this board a lot during the build-up to the last election and the predictions of some posters about the BNP has been shown to be way off reality.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who/where?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
None of which you bother dealing with.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
In short: The biggest factor is 2014 Euro results.
If they lose both seats they are as good as dead and buried.
If they keep 1 they will stagger on.
If they keep both or grow it will be presented as quite a success.
I can't really see the growth option working out.
But knocking out NG and AB is tricky in terms of galvanising any specific anti BNP votes. De hondt makes it hard to read, but Labour would probably need 3 votes for every vote Greens would need (but being in opposition in Westminster now that might not be so far out a prospect. UKIP would need 2 (I'm talking about Griffin in the NW here). The liberals would need a lot more votes than last time to get a second seat, which won't happen.
Some GPEW people think it was a misjudgement to have gone full tilt on the anti BNP thing last time around, though they would have probably hailed a success if the margin had been 0.3% (5 votes per ward) the other way. I can see both sides of the argument. How much is made of it next time around hasn't been had out yet.
There remains a solid amount of potential for any party indulging in far right rhetoric. Happily the BNP, EDL and BFP can't stop themselves from ballsing up, so it will continue to be Conservatives and UKIP who make more subtle overtures to that contingent.
If they lose both seats they are as good as dead and buried.
If they keep 1 they will stagger on.
If they keep both or grow it will be presented as quite a success.
I can't really see the growth option working out.
But knocking out NG and AB is tricky in terms of galvanising any specific anti BNP votes. De hondt makes it hard to read, but Labour would probably need 3 votes for every vote Greens would need (but being in opposition in Westminster now that might not be so far out a prospect. UKIP would need 2 (I'm talking about Griffin in the NW here). The liberals would need a lot more votes than last time to get a second seat, which won't happen.
Some GPEW people think it was a misjudgement to have gone full tilt on the anti BNP thing last time around, though they would have probably hailed a success if the margin had been 0.3% (5 votes per ward) the other way. I can see both sides of the argument. How much is made of it next time around hasn't been had out yet.
There remains a solid amount of potential for any party indulging in far right rhetoric. Happily the BNP, EDL and BFP can't stop themselves from ballsing up, so it will continue to be Conservatives and UKIP who make more subtle overtures to that contingent.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
2014 is too long away to make it the immediate factor. Griffin will try and ensure good work and returns in the NW.
Your tory/labour/lib-dem/green bloc will do the same anyone but the nazas thing again.
Your tory/labour/lib-dem/green bloc will do the same anyone but the nazas thing again.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
griffin said he was resigning next year and possibly handing the reigns to princess jenny g which shd make interesting viewing. whether he does or not is open to speculation. he shd have enough cash now to nick off to his bolthole in croatia, without his skoda obviously.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't think the bnp will be in a position to fight the 2014 elections due to a lack of money. you seem to think they'll stagger on till 2014, which i think extremely unlikely as they have always haemmorhaged members it's just for a while they were recruiting more than they were losing. now they are shedding members like there's no tomorrow, their finances are fucked and pretty much all the talent's left - butler, golding, kemp etc etc. who is going to do the legwork for the campaign? the bnp's fucked, it ain't holding on for another 30 months.
The Black Hand
Unclean
It was already sed by Ayatollah - DID U MISS IT?
"Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years."
I couldn't agree more, but then we've covered the De facto 'bigging up the BNP' angle by self described antifascists so many times before, and I don't want to prolong those awful irrelevant debates anyway.
Whats far more interesting are attempts to build the anarchist and/or marxist/left/socialist opposition, and in particular practical attempts to do so - not far more inane and irrelevant cobweb intanet shite.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
It was already sed by Ayatollah - DID U MISS IT?
"Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years."
I couldn't agree more, but then we've covered the De facto 'bigging up the BNP' angle by self described antifascists so many times before, and I don't want to prolong those awful irrelevant debates anyway.
Whats far more interesting are attempts to build the anarchist and/or marxist/left/socialist opposition, and in particular practical attempts to do so - not far more inane and irrelevant cobweb intanet shite.
I can't recall anyone bigging up the BNP. What some of us have argued is that the BNP needed to be taken seriously as a political organisation and not just dismissed a nazis in cheap suits that could be no platformed by 'anti fascists'.
Rather than trying to rebuild a left that has little or no relevance for working class communities I would suggest that building local working class organisation might be a more pressing need.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
On the what now for the BNP discussion: The far rights problem is simply that since the BNP split neither the BNP or the ED or EFP etc have enough capacity to position themselves as the organsiation that can repeat the success of the BNP in what should be favourable times for the far right ( ironically the same period should also be favourable for the far 'left').
I suspect that there will eventually be some sort of electoral deal/pact that will be based around getting Brons releacted to Europe.
I suspect that there will eventually be some sort of electoral deal/pact that will be based around getting Brons releacted to Europe.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
He got his Skoda back
It was already sed by Ayatollah - DID U MISS IT?
"Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years."
I couldn't agree more, but then we've covered the De facto 'bigging up the BNP' angle by self described antifascists so many times before, and I don't want to prolong those awful irrelevant debates anyway.
Whats far more interesting are attempts to build the anarchist and/or marxist/left/socialist opposition, and in particular practical attempts to do so - not far more inane and irrelevant cobweb intanet shite.
Whatever happens to the BNP, they've created a pool of about a million people, most of them working class, who are prepared to vote for an overtly racist party.
You, meanwhile, will continue to hold your meetings in phone booths, and the opposition you speak of is entirely imaginary.
Sad though it is, this guy knows how it is.
1%er
Well-Known Member
Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that you believe it is the BNP that have "created the pool...."?
In the sense that they gave this million or so people a party they could comfortably vote for, yes.
1%er
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification, it is an important distinction.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What predictions?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
"who will campaign?" is a fair question, but there are still some active branches out there. Perhaps BNP voters are less bothered about being campaigned to, but with it being as close as it was last time that wouldn't keep them in. I certainly would caution against any kind of complacency. But as for making it to 2014 and onto the ballot: far smaller operations manage it. All you need is £5k and the paperwork done. I would be very suprised if they didn't muster that up.
I of course accept that it was important to demolish the myth that the fascists had been beaten in the 90's, and to point out that the BNP's electoral, "respectable" right populism tack based on local community work was going like a train in terms of growth and influence. I do though think many putting forward this "Filling the vacuum" position, seguing as it did with your own version of "build it local in working class communities" strategy, were very slow to see the BNP strategy falter and fail in a catastrophic mix of infighting and corruption.
Partly I would suggest because, just as "municipal fascism" is a very hard tactic to continue for long before the failure to make a big difference to the lives of ones supporters and voters at local level derails the movement, so , as Militant found in Liverpool in the 80's, a radical movement of Left OR right just can't get enough access to POWER and resources via localist strategies to break the wider political mould - as it needs to do to maintain momentum.
You may see no relevance nowadays in the socialist agenda, but in reality it is ONLY the socialist agenda that has any radical answer to the current world capitalist crisis . Localism based on some sort of concept of "a working class agenda" separate from socialism just aint going to deliver to working class communities I'm afraid. As the Radical Left who gained control of Berlin Council recently discovered, in a capitalist crisis the resources at purely local level are so tight that a local party even of the radical Left , in isolation, ends up having to IMPLEMENT" the very austerity cuts it got elected to oppose. Only a national working class movement with a socialist agenda , linked to an internationalist perspective, can DELIVER a coherent radical reponse to the capitalist crisis - alongside LOCAL organisation too obviously.
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