what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[ViolentPanda]

While I agree with you about govt actions, it is also a very great deal to do with the RBL. They are enthusiastic participants in the process. As mentioned above, the way they sell corporate remembrance tie-ins is as stark an example of this as you could want.

Except that (unlike the government) the RBL don't really have a choice - they have a remit, a "mission" to make life better for those who served, and as they see it, they're doing that. I don't have a lot of time for the RBL (although I'm forever grateful for what help they gave my paternal grandfather, which allowed him to control his PTSD after 20-odd years of it affecting him, post-war), but I don't think they're some pro-corporate bogeyman that indoctrinates kids to an acceptance of military life, either.

 

[toggle]

there's a difference between remembering and enforced rememberence. between respecting those who fought, those who died and respecting the entire political structure thatpout them there. between honouring the fallen and celebrating warfare.

there's a lot of what is happening that makes me feel those lines are being blurred. a jingoism that is attacking the dissenters, they are cowards, they are insufficiently patriotic, they support the enemy, not addressing the reasons why they dissent. and you don't have to look all that hard to find veterans who know that difference.

i've got a freind who can get a bit of a gobby right winger, more of a real life troll than a complete twat, we got onto to discussing the protests at wooton bassett and the hysteria in the right wing press about them. he dug up some stuff on arrse, an army message board where the opinions were overwhelmingly for the right of the islamacists to hold their protests. the worst aspects of the loud and proud jingoism aren't coming from the people who have to go cash all the cheques our politicians write.

we need to seperate rememberence, from the history, from the mythology, from the politics and jingoism. in ww1, we sent a generation of men out to fight. to come back broken if they came back at all. we are still sending men out to die. we still see people trying to make political capital out of their deaths, while traumatised and injured soldiers are being listed as fit for work by atos.

it's not the remembering that's the bloody problem. it's the feeling we all are being pushed into becoming part of a fuciking circus of hypocritical bullshit that is growing up around it. that's the problem.

 

[toggle]

They are examples of armed forces acting in a political manner,if and when the British army does the same then it will have become 'political
Until then it remains, as I have said, apolitical.

if it was truly apolitical, then criticising the armed forces would also be apolitical.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think they're some pro-corporate bogeyman that indoctrinates kids to an acceptance of military life, either.

Ok. I think you're flying in the face of the evidence on both these things.

 

[coley]

there's a difference between remembering and enforced rememberence. between respecting those who fought, those who died and respecting the entire political structure thatpout them there. between honouring the fallen and celebrating warfare.

there's a lot of what is happening that makes me feel those lines are being blurred. a jingoism that is attacking the dissenters, they are cowards, they are insufficiently patriotic, they support the enemy, not addressing the reasons why they dissent. and you don't have to look all that hard to find veterans who know that difference.

i've got a freind who can get a bit of a gobby right winger, more of a real life troll than a complete twat, we got onto to discussing the protests at wooton bassett and the hysteria in the right wing press about them. he dug up some stuff on arrse, an army message board where the opinions were overwhelmingly for the right of the islamacists to hold their protests. the worst aspects of the loud and proud jingoism aren't coming from the people who have to go cash all the cheques our politicians write.

we need to seperate rememberence, from the history, from the mythology, from the politics and jingoism. in ww1, we sent a generation of men out to fight. to come back broken if they came back at all. we are still sending men out to die. we still see people trying to make political capital out of their deaths, while traumatised and injured soldiers are being listed as fit for work by atos.

it's not the remembering that's the bloody problem. it's the feeling we all are being pushed into becoming part of a fuciking circus of hypocritical bullshit that is growing up around it. that's the problem.

A well balanced post, ta.

 

[Pingu]

Airborne military police could you be a bigger wanker if you tried

airborne MOD plod?

 

[Citizen66]

They are examples of armed forces acting in a political manner,if and when the British army does the same then it will have become 'political
Until then it remains, as I have said, apolitical.

It is loyal to the crown. Like it or not that's a political position.

 

[Pingu]

Anyway, here's a nice picture of the British Army not glorifying war and not using Poppy Day as a recruitment tool at Portman Road on Saturday

an excellent point and well made.

however i would like to point out that Remembrance Sunday is on the Sunday (not the Saturday) with armistice day being on Tuesday - this year and that there is a distinct lack of poppies/poppy sellers in that picture.

 

[toggle]

While I agree with you about govt actions, it is also a very great deal to do with the RBL. They are enthusiastic participants in the process. As mentioned above, the way they sell corporate remembrance tie-ins is as stark an example of this as you could want.

yes, no, maybee. while there is an aspect of having drunk the jingo koolaid, they also have a responsibility to do everything they can to fundraise for the people whose ongoing care should not be the responsibility of charity. i'm not going to lay all the blame on them for feeding off the patriotic frenzy when it comes from a place of making sure their mates get MH care that's more than take a few pills and fuck off. or the physio that lets them walk again.

that's a lot different to feeding off the frenzy to justify more war.

 

[coley]

It is loyal to the crown. Like it or not that's a political position.

No, loyal to the head of state and state, doubt if there would be a military coup if we decided to become a republic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

^^^ and the very people who here swear blind its just remembrance and its just poppies are quick to smirk at jonny foriegners crude propaganda

It should be "just" remembrance. That it isn't, should be a stain on the souls of the political class, and on anyone who sees no issue with respectful remembrance of all the dead of all the wars being hijacked and deployed as a tool of jingoism.

 

[8ball]

No, loyal to the head of state and state, doubt if there would be a military coup if we decided to become a republic.

 

[Citizen66]

No, loyal to the head of state and state, doubt if there would be a military coup if we decided to become a republic.

It's the Crown forces. ROYAL Navy. ROYAL Airforce.

What to you think swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen is? Theatre?

 

[Pingu]

It's the Crown forces. ROYAL Navy. ROYAL Airforce.

What to you think swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen is? Theatre?

the queen is the head of state

 

[littlebabyjesus]

yes, no, maybee. while there is an aspect of having drunk the jingo koolaid, they also have a responsibility to do everything they can to fundraise for the people whose ongoing care should not be the responsibility of charity. i'm not going to lay all the blame on them for feeding off the patriotic frenzy when it comes from a place of making sure their mates get MH care that's more than take a few pills and fuck off. or the physio that lets them walk again.

that's a lot different to feeding off the frenzy to justify more war.

They serve more than one purpose, that's all. They provide help for people who need it, and also produce much of the circus you referred to earlier.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, loyal to the head of state and state, doubt if there would be a military coup if we decided to become a republic.

if we decided to become a republic there would likely have been some sort of civil conflict just like the last time we tried to get rid of the foul royal clan.

 

[andysays]

It's the Crown forces. ROYAL Navy. ROYAL Airforce.

What to you think swearing an oath of allegiance to the Queen is? Theatre?

TBH, that's pretty much exactly what it is. Political theatre, of course...

 

[CNT36]

If you think the remembrance service is about glorification of the military and the UK you haven't been to many.

I've been to around 20 including this year. I remember very few where the national anthem wasn't sung very shortly after the silence. Where some phrases glorifying war or at least particular wars weren't uttered.

Edit to add - actually I remember none where this didn't happen.

 

[toggle]

It should be "just" remembrance. That it isn't, should be a stain on the souls of the political class, and on anyone who sees no issue with respectful remembrance of all the dead of all the wars being hijacked and deployed as a tool of jingoism.

it's worth remembering mass public remembrance and memorialisation began as a result of the boer war. a nasty little imperial conflict spurred on by jingoism. where the army nearly got their arse handed to them, they needed a 10 to 1 majority to win, despite the willingness to decimate (not in the roman sense, the death toll was worse than that) the civilian population. their complete lack of give-a-shit about the ordinary soldiers got shown up as well.

 

[Lord Camomile]

it's not the remembering that's the bloody problem. it's the feeling we all are being pushed into becoming part of a fuciking circus of hypocritical bullshit that is growing up around it. that's the problem.

Pretty much, aye. It's now being used by a lot of people as a yardstick to judge others by, and that's rather unpleasant.

Plus others may genuinely be uncomfortable with various aspects of it, which is fair enough and they should neither be forced to participate nor judged for not doing so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you think the remembrance service is about glorification of the military and the UK you haven't been to many.

It certainly isn't that to many who served (and to many who didn't), but the act and ceremony of remembrance can certainly be said to have been hijacked by the political classes in an attempt to make it serve such a function.

 

[Pickman's model]

it's worth remembering mass public remembrance and memorialisation began as a result of the boer war. a nasty little imperial conflict spurred on by jingoism. where the army nearly got their arse handed to them, they needed a 10 to 1 majority to win, despite the willingness to decimate (not in the roman sense, the death toll was worse than that) the civilian population. their complete lack of give-a-shit about the ordinary soldiers got shown up as well.

are you sure? what about the crimean war and the indian mutiny? think there's a monument to soldiers from crimean war in dover, and of course in london. you don't see so many memorials to the boer war except in football grounds (eg the [spion] kop end).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've been to around 20. That you can't see it i says it all.

The "pomp and circumstance" has always been about presenting war as a just pursuit. The act of remembrance itself, though (the remembering of all the dead, and how and why they died), which is what has been increasingly hijacked by the political classes and their media friends, has never glorified militarism and/or war, IMHO.

 

[toggle]

are you sure? what about the crimean war and the indian mutiny? think there's a monument to soldiers from crimean war in dover, and of course in london. you don't see so many memorials to the boer war except in football grounds (eg the kop end).

I can remember reading that from a fairly decent source, although buggered if I could tell you where from.

the point was not that public rememberence began at that point, but that it scaled up into a bigger thing as a result of something that was an unjustifiable fuckup.

i'll also note the form of the memorial. you list statues. the boer war memorials start to take the form of lists of names a lot more. (i think, the ones i've looked at do). like this one.and i think that was more unusual beforehand.

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Cornwall/images/TruroCathedralSAWMSoldiersSailors.jpg

 

[likesfish]

No, loyal to the head of state and state, doubt if there would be a military coup if we decided to become a republic.

Depends if it was president blair or cameroon or clegg there would be an outbreak of revoultion frevour to see those wankers hung .
The Queen keeps her views to herself mostly thats why I fear charles may fuck the whole thing up

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Depends if it was president blair or cameroon or clegg there would be an outbreak of revoultion frevour to see those wankers hung .
The Queen keeps her views to herself mostly thats why I fear charles may fuck the whole thing up

There is more than one model for a republic. Can you name the president of Germany? Or Italy?

 

[Citizen66]

the queen is the head of state

And that makes a difference how?

 

[likesfish]

There is more than one model for a republic. Can you name the president of Germany? Or Italy?

Do you really think we'd go for a sensible model when we could pick a lunatic model

 

[Sasaferrato]

the problem here is that army personnel being involved in civil projects in no way invalidates thier ultimate political role- its simply a failure of civil governance through laziness incompetence and avarice that requires the army to step in when all the civilian contractors who have been fed tax millions fail to deliver. It does not mean the army is a great non political good guy. It means they've been drafted in to cover. Much as when several areas of the UK had been flooded for months but the army only got called in when the flooding hit home counties.

See also: defending olympic site security in London after G4S had proved not up to it.

they'd still be calling them out in green goddeses to cover during fireman strikes if we hadn't sold the ageing relics to an african nation and started training up scab crews to ride normal fire engines during a strike (last time that happened the scab crews stacked two of the engines in london. It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic)

Look. You and many others on here are inherently 'anti armed forces'. Let us just agree to disagree.

 

[Sasaferrato]

there's a difference between remembering and enforced rememberence. between respecting those who fought, those who died and respecting the entire political structure thatpout them there. between honouring the fallen and celebrating warfare.

there's a lot of what is happening that makes me feel those lines are being blurred. a jingoism that is attacking the dissenters, they are cowards, they are insufficiently patriotic, they support the enemy, not addressing the reasons why they dissent. and you don't have to look all that hard to find veterans who know that difference.

i've got a freind who can get a bit of a gobby right winger, more of a real life troll than a complete twat, we got onto to discussing the protests at wooton bassett and the hysteria in the right wing press about them. he dug up some stuff on arrse, an army message board where the opinions were overwhelmingly for the right of the islamacists to hold their protests. the worst aspects of the loud and proud jingoism aren't coming from the people who have to go cash all the cheques our politicians write.

we need to seperate rememberence, from the history, from the mythology, from the politics and jingoism. in ww1, we sent a generation of men out to fight. to come back broken if they came back at all. we are still sending men out to die. we still see people trying to make political capital out of their deaths, while traumatised and injured soldiers are being listed as fit for work by atos.

it's not the remembering that's the bloody problem. it's the feeling we all are being pushed into becoming part of a fuciking circus of hypocritical bullshit that is growing up around it. that's the problem.

Indeed. It is up to the individual whether they decide to observe the two minute silence, or indeed any other aspect of remembrance.

I'm an ex-soldier, today I sat in silence and remembered my colleagues that are no longer here. A personal thing, no one else in my office knew these people.

I have a growing feeling of unease due to the increasing emphasis on remembering the fallen, almost as if it is 'un-British' or 'disrespectful' not to do so. I don't quite know where it is headed, but I don't like it. My fallen comrades really don't give a fuck whether you observe two minutes of silence or not, they are dead.