what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[butchersapron]

Apart from the mass of proof and of people involved openly talking of it years later.

 

[Pingu]

you do know that, as clausewitz said, war is the continuation of politics by other means?

as Louis XIV said (was inscribed on french canon of the time) - "Ultima ratio regum". (The final argument of kings)

 

[youngian]

Is it me or has there been a lull this year in Poppy wearing witch hunts from sanctimonious windbags? Given the fact that its the WW1 outbreak centenary you would think it would have a higher profile this year. Am I being cynical to suggest the complex discussion about this key event is a bit too much effort for the tabloid armchair warriors? Especially for UKIPers: "We didn't fight two world wars to end up doing business in Europe in a peaceful manner"

 

[Pingu]

No, it's not. The armed forces and the police carry out the will of the politicians. They are political because they are the force of politics. They are not freestanding - they are agents of the state.

for me the key differentiator between the police and the armed forces is where they are used.

the police are an extension of domestic policy whilst the armed forces are an extension of foreign policy. Using the armed forces to suppress a domestic situation would mean that the government was REALLY desperate and it would be an admission that they couldn't maintain control. (TBH I am not so clear on using stuff like green goddesses here during fire service strikes but here the army isnt really being used in its primary capacity i.e. shooty stabby stuff)

SO Coley is kind of right in that the forces are not a political tool domestically but they are certainly an extension of british foreign policy.

IME most normal squaddies etc feel as much antipathy for the ruling government as is displayed by the rest of the populace.

 

[DotCommunist]

northern ireland wasn't domestic?

 

[rekil]

George Orwell, writing in the October 1941 issue of Adelphi magazine: "Since pacifists have more freedom of action in countries where traces of democracy survive, pacifism can act more effectively against democracy than for it. Objectively, the pacifist is pro-Nazi."

Pompous old windbag Eoghan Harris used that line in one of his many many articles about why 'we' needed to go into 'Raq. Orwell apologised for the line afterwards, blaming the "madness of war". He knew very well that pacifists served in dangerous occupations, medical corps, bomb disposal, etc. Tell you what though, grassing up communists to intelligence services, now that really is a little bit objectively pro-nazi.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

for me the key differentiator between the police and the armed forces is where they are used.

the police are an extension of domestic policy whilst the armed forces are an extension of foreign policy. Using the armed forces to suppress a domestic situation would mean that the government was REALLY desperate and it would be an admission that they couldn't maintain control. (TBH I am not so clear on using stuff like green goddesses here during fire service strikes but here the army isnt really being used in its primary capacity i.e. shooty stabby stuff)

SO Coley is kind of right in that the forces are not a political tool domestically but they are certainly an extension of british foreign policy.

IME most normal squaddies etc feel as much antipathy for the ruling government as is displayed by the rest of the populace.

Normal coppers are not exactly big fans of the government generally.

Also what about when soldiers are deployed to protect airports like in the aftermath of the IRA strikes in the nineties? Or guarding Faslane, or royal venues and military barracks in London?

 

[Pingu]

northern ireland wasn't domestic?

yes IMO it was but see bit about not being able to maintain control. NI and the deployment of troops there was the british gov admitting they couldnt maintain control of the populace without the use of force and thus a "desperate measure".

NI is a weird one though as I think it only "worked" * because it wasnt mainland britain. I dont think it would have worked has the same situation arose in say middlesex.

* worked is a very very broad term here and I am aware that its probably not the right word to use.

 

[Pingu]

Normal coppers are not exactly big fans of the government generally.

Also what about when soldiers are deployed to protect airports like in the aftermath of the IRA strikes in the nineties? Or guarding Faslane, or royal venues and military barracks in London?

tbh thats a bit different to deploying them on the streets to maintain general order. DCs point about NI though raises some interesting questions about how NI was viewed by the general populace of the mainland. (was it seen as "foreign" compared to the mainland?) though this is possibly best discussed on a different thread as its going to get messy

 

[dylanredefined]

Pompous old windbag Eoghan Harris used that line in one of his many many articles about why 'we' needed to go into 'Raq. Orwell apologised for the line afterwards, blaming the "madness of war". He knew very well that pacifists served in dangerous occupations, medical corps, bomb disposal, etc. Tell you what though, grassing up communists to intelligence services, now that really is a little bit objectively pro-nazi.

No that's just anti commie. Communists have no right to claim superiority or exclusivity on anti fascism as they were happy to jump into bed with Nazis.

 

[butchersapron]

No that's just anti commie. Communists have no right to claim superiority or exclusivity on anti fascism as they were happy to jump into bed with Nazis.

Did you do WW2 at school at all?

 

[dylanredefined]

Did you do WW2 at school at all?

Did you? There is an argument to be had that if Stalin had not helped Hitler it might not have kicked off after all.

 

[Idris2002]

Did you?

 

[butchersapron]

Did you?

Has this thread turned into post the daftest thing you can think of or something overnight?

 

[Idris2002]

northern ireland wasn't domestic?

Not really (seriously - Jim Callaghan admitted later that when the balloon went up in 1969, no one knew anything about "Ireland", as he called it).

 

[andysays]

No that's just anti commie. Communists have no right to claim superiority or exclusivity on anti fascism as they were happy to jump into bed with Nazis.

Oh dear, you just can't help yourself with the Nazi-supporting slurs, can you?

While it's true that Stalin was willing to ally himself with Hitler, and that many official-communist/Soviet allied/Stalinist communists went along with this, the idea that all self-described communists, even then, were happy to jump into bed with Nazis is malicious slandering bollocks, in the same way that suggesting all white poppy wearers are/were appeasers is.

 

[butchersapron]

Did you? There is an argument to be had that if Stalin had not helped Hitler it might not have kicked off after all.

Now you've just outdone yourself. And all others. Apart from pbman who was the last one to take the line that it was the USSR that started the war. But he added that by USSR he really meant the jews. Going to take a shot at beating him?

 

[Pickman's model]

Did you? There is an argument to be had that if Stalin had not helped Hitler it might not have kicked off after all.

yes because OBVIOUSLY the "world war" only took place in europe and we don't care the chinese (& japanese) had been fighting for some years already

 

[andysays]

If we're posting pics with which to slander whole groups of people, let's have this one

All us Brits are Nazis, obvs...

 

[dylanredefined]

Now you've just outdone yourself. And all others. Apart from pbman who was the last one to take the line that it was the USSR that started the war. But he added that by USSR he really meant the jews. Going to take a shot at beating him?

Never said that. What I said was if Stalin hadn't helped the Nazis it might not have kicked off. Your claim that being anti commie automatically makes you pro Nazi is just as slanderous.

 

[dylanredefined]

If we're posting pics with which to slander whole groups of people, let's have this one

All us Brits are Nazis, obvs...

She a yank and he is part german try again

 

[Pickman's model]

If we're posting pics with which to slander whole groups of people, let's have this one

All us Brits are Nazis, obvs...

i think you'll find the man on the right is austrian, the woman on the left american and the gent in the middle german.

 

[andysays]

.

 

[dylanredefined]

i think you'll find the man on the right is austrian, the woman on the left american and the gent in the middle almost wholly german.

Your right I apologise

 

[butchersapron]

Never said that. What I said was if Stalin hadn't helped the Nazis it might not have kicked off. Your claim that being anti commie automatically makes you pro Nazi is just as slanderous.

What claim you prat? I said no such thing. In fact no one said any such thing.

 

[Idris2002]

Never said that. What I said was if Stalin hadn't helped the Nazis it might not have kicked off. Your claim that being anti commie automatically makes you pro Nazi is just as slanderous.

You mean that if it wasn't for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Hitler wouldn't have risked invading Poland? That seems to underestimate or ignore the role of the Reich's internal economic crisis in driving it to war as the only means by which the regime could survive.

And Joe, murdering bastard though he was, had been trying to get some kind of collective security agreement with the western powers all through the summer of 1939. I'm not sure they can be blamed for being suspicious of him, but there indifference to those soviet requests for an alliance help explain why the pact with Germany was signed. For what it's worth, I remember listening to radio Moscow on the fiftieth anniversary of the pact and they still defended it as a tactical manouevre to buy time. They didn't mention what they did to Poland, of course.

 

[dylanredefined]

You mean that if it wasn't for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Hitler wouldn't have risked invading Poland? That seems to underestimate or ignore the role of the Reich's internal economic crisis in driving it to war as the only means by which the regime could survive.

And Joe, murdering bastard though he was, had been trying to get some kind of collective security agreement with the western powers all through the summer of 1939. I'm not sure they can be blamed for being suspicious of him, but there indifference to those soviet requests for an alliance help explain why the pact with Germany was signed. For what it's worth, I remember listening to radio Moscow on the fiftieth anniversary of the pact and they still defended it as a tactical manouevre to buy time. They didn't mention what they did to Poland, of course.

They also helped Germans re arm and sold a lot of resources to Germany. Now I have no idea if Russia had no choice in having to do this someone with a better understanding of economics and history would argue better. How far the Nazis would have got in Europe if Stalin had not joined in carving up Poland is debatable. Obviously with hindsight everyone in Europe made the worst choices.

 

[Idris2002]

They also helped Germans re arm and sold a lot of resources to Germany. Now I have no idea if Russia had no choice in having to do this someone with a better understanding of economics and history would argue better. How far the Nazis would have got in Europe if Stalin had not joined in carving up Poland is debatable. Obviously with hindsight everyone in Europe made the worst choices.

And a lot of yank capitalists had fingers in the German pie all the way up to 1941.

 

[DotCommunist]

http://io9.com/the-cia-and-fbi-had-1-000-nazi-assets-during-cold-war-1651301118

Writing in the New York Times, Eric Lichtblau cites interviews and declassified records to show how the CIA and FBI actively recruited Nazis after the war, and how, as recently as the 1990s, they refused to share information they had on Nazis living in the U.S. with other government officials.

During the Cold War, institution heads like the FBI's J. Edgar Hoover and the CIA's Allen Dulles "aggressively" recruited onetime Nazis of all ranks as secret, anti-Soviet "assets." They figured that their intelligence value outweighed their "moral lapses" in their service to the Third Reich.

 

[dylanredefined]

http://io9.com/the-cia-and-fbi-had-1-000-nazi-assets-during-cold-war-1651301118

What actual use could they possible be except as decoys?
West and East Germany had no choice as anyone over a certain level had to join the party ,but, CIA and FBI has no excuse it is not like the Nazi's were any good at spying in the first place.