what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[ViolentPanda]

how am I indoctrinated?

You're applying your opinion as dogmatically as coley applied his, with little room for compromise. To me that carries the scent of indoctrination, albeit not with the state's opinions.
Dogmatism is the enemy of rational thought.

 

[Sea Star]

You're applying your opinion as dogmatically as coley applied his, with little room for compromise. To me that carries the scent of indoctrination, albeit not with the state's opinions.
Dogmatism is the enemy of rational thought.

I haven't even stated my opinion on here, let alone try to persuade anyone to my opinion...


And you wont see dogma coming from me!!

 

[andysays]

You're applying your opinion as dogmatically as coley applied his, with little room for compromise. To me that carries the scent of indoctrination, albeit not with the state's opinions.
Dogmatism is the enemy of rational thought.

My mistake, you weren't joking.

Would you care to expand on your thesis that AuntiStella is somehow indoctrinated?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think that was VP's idea of a joke, though admittedly it's a little difficult to tell sometimes

It's always difficult to tell.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My mistake, you weren't joking.

Would you care to expand on your thesis that AuntiStella is somehow indoctrinated?

We're all indoctrinated. That much is plainly obvious. We're all educated to hold a certain set of opinions as somehow self-evident, and as a people we tend to more or less go with those opinions, or react against them. coley voiced his, AuntiStella reacted against it.
I contend that AuntiStella is indoctrinated because her opinion is that coley (as a representative of the military establishment) is "thoroughly indoctrinated". You don't make claims like that unless you believe that your own position is self-evidently correct.

 

[andysays]

We're all indoctrinated. That much is plainly obvious. We're all educated to hold a certain set of opinions as somehow self-evident, and as a people we tend to more or less go with those opinions, or react against them. coley voiced his, AuntiStella reacted against it.
I contend that AuntiStella is indoctrinated because her opinion is that coley (as a representative of the military establishment) is "thoroughly indoctrinated". You don't make claims like that unless you believe that your own position is self-evidently correct.

We are all indoctrinated, though I got the impression you were suggesting that AS was more-than-usually indoctrinated on this issue.

I'm sure AS can speak for herself if she wishes, but I also got the impression she was suggesting that Coley was indoctrinated on the basis of what he was saying as well as on his history in the military.

And would I be entirely out of line in suggesting that members and ex-members of the armed forces are among those who one might expect to have been more thoroughly indoctrinated than average in particular areas? If you look at the comments of some of those who I know to have armed forces history, they're hardly examples of independent free-thinking.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We are all indoctrinated, though I got the impression you were suggesting that AS was more-than-usually indoctrinated on this issue.

I'm sure AS can speak for herself if she wishes, but I also got the impression she was suggesting that Coley was indoctrinated on the basis of what he was saying as well as on his history in the military.

And would I be entirely out of line in suggesting that members and ex-members of the armed forces are among those who one might expect to have been more thoroughly indoctrinated than average in particular areas? If you look at the comments of some of those who I know to have armed forces history, they're hardly examples of independent free-thinking.

I have an armed forces history.
I've said many times before on Urban too, that some of the most committed politically-left free-thinkers that I've had the pleasure of knowing have been ex-military too.

 

[andysays]

I have an armed forces history.
I've said many times before on Urban too, that some of the most committed politically-left free-thinkers that I've had the pleasure of knowing have been ex-military too.

I know you do.

That's why I said some of those etc, because i didn't want to lump you (or coley TBF) in with those who are equating white poppies with Nazi appeasement.

A pleasure, as always

 

[Sea Star]

We are all indoctrinated, though I got the impression you were suggesting that AS was more-than-usually indoctrinated on this issue.

I'm sure AS can speak for herself if she wishes, but I also got the impression she was suggesting that Coley was indoctrinated on the basis of what he was saying as well as on his history in the military.

And would I be entirely out of line in suggesting that members and ex-members of the armed forces are among those who one might expect to have been more thoroughly indoctrinated than average in particular areas? If you look at the comments of some of those who I know to have armed forces history, they're hardly examples of independent free-thinking.

more or less spot on!

 

[butchersapron]

We are all indoctrinated, though I got the impression you were suggesting that AS was more-than-usually indoctrinated on this issue.

I'm sure AS can speak for herself if she wishes, but I also got the impression she was suggesting that Coley was indoctrinated on the basis of what he was saying as well as on his history in the military.

And would I be entirely out of line in suggesting that members and ex-members of the armed forces are among those who one might expect to have been more thoroughly indoctrinated than average in particular areas? If you look at the comments of some of those who I know to have armed forces history, they're hardly examples of independent free-thinking.

What is your expectation as regards indoctrination? Do you know many ex-services?

 

[andysays]

What is your expectation as regards indoctrination? Do you know many ex-services?

First, this was not an entirely serious post - it was made in the knowledge that VP has an armed forces history and it was a bit of a gentle leg pull.

And although I don't know that many ex-services, I think I'm able to make the general point that most of them will, to a greater or lesser extent, have been trained/socialised/indoctrinated into a particular way of thinking about the role of the military, in just the same way that members of the police or other arms/institutions of the state (and of course other organisations more widely) will have been into thinking positively about the organisation which they are a member of.

Is that really such a contentious suggestion?

 

[butchersapron]

First, this was not an entirely serious post - it was made in the knowledge that VP has an armed forces history and it was a bit of a gentle leg pull.

And although I don't know that many ex-services, I think I'm able to make the general point that most of them will, to a greater or lesser extent, have been trained/socialised/indoctrinated into a particular way of thinking about the role of the military, in just the same way that members of the police or other arms/institutions of the state (and of course other organisations more widely) will have been into thinking positively about the organisation which they are a member of.

Is that really such a contentious suggestion?

Not at all. What's missing here is the armed forces as a site of struggle - the same as all institutions - in favour of just a/b - indoctrinated or not. And indoctrination is also about the worst concept that could be used here. Insulting to those engaged in that struggle and their capabilities.

 

[andysays]

Not at all. What's missing here is the armed forces as a site of struggle - the same as all institutions - in favour of just a/b - indoctrinated or not. And indoctrination is also about the worst concept that could be used here. Insulting to those engaged in that struggle and their capabilities.

OK, I take your point and agree with the wider issue, but maybe you're reading a little too much into a throw-away post to VP batting his choice of term back at him.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm suggesting that they don't have an overt forum, in the way that police brass do, and that that limits their ability to engage in politics. There's also the small matter of inter-services rivalry and snobbery, which means that the brass have never been as cohesive as the police brass.

Snobbery? The RAF are a bunch of posers, and the Navy play with boats. The only REAL service is the army of course. (Well, we would include the Marines.)

 

[Sasaferrato]

We are all indoctrinated, though I got the impression you were suggesting that AS was more-than-usually indoctrinated on this issue.

I'm sure AS can speak for herself if she wishes, but I also got the impression she was suggesting that Coley was indoctrinated on the basis of what he was saying as well as on his history in the military.

And would I be entirely out of line in suggesting that members and ex-members of the armed forces are among those who one might expect to have been more thoroughly indoctrinated than average in particular areas? If you look at the comments of some of those who I know to have armed forces history, they're hardly examples of independent free-thinking.

By heck, I've read some guff on here, but that really takes the biscuit. No part whatsoever of my military training was of a political nature. I feel you may be confusing the British army with that of the, now defunct, USSR. They attended lectures, and had political officers.

What a strange thing for you to think, I can only attribute it to a complete lack of knowledge. I was a 'soldier' for 13 weeks of basic training, then again for a couple of weeks during promotion courses. The rest of the time, I was a nurse then a pharmacist, in common with the majority of soldiers, I did my job, pretty much as I would have in civvy street. Other than when out with a Field Surgical Team, I was one of the five.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So perhaps there is something wrong with soldiering as a career, in that you willingly* give up any right to be able to choose to take part in a conflict on the basis of your own view on whether it is just/in the national interest/whatever you want to call it.

Once you've signed up, you've abidicated your ability to make any moral choice over your actions to someone else.

*although you may not necessarily recognise the full implications of this at the time you first sign up

That is more than a touch patronising.

 

[geminisnake]

http://www.donotlink.com/framed?574703
Article from someone who lived through both WW

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's a recorded message on London buses at the moment. Poppy appeal, linking World War 1 to today's wars, speaking of sacrifices to keep us free. They do what Harry Smith speaks of there, justifying today's action by linking it to past wars. One long unbroken tradition.The usual stuff. And they presume a right to broadcast at us just because we use public transport, using the voices of rich people for whom catching the bus is probably a distant memory.

 

[butchersapron]

There's a recorded message on London buses at the moment. Poppy appeal, linking World War 1 to today's wars, speaking of sacrifices to keep us free. They do what Harry Smith speaks of there, justifying today's action by linking it to past wars. One long unbroken tradition.The usual stuff. And they presume a right to broadcast at us just because we use public transport, using the voices of rich people for whom catching the bus is probably a distant memory.

Patch

 

[8ball]

Is it me or has there been a lull this year in Poppy wearing witch hunts from sanctimonious windbags? Given the fact that its the WW1 outbreak centenary you would think it would have a higher profile this year. Am I being cynical to suggest the complex discussion about this key event is a bit too much effort for the tabloid armchair warriors? Especially for UKIPers: "We didn't fight two world wars to end up doing business in Europe in a peaceful manner"

Seems that way here too - the jingoists seem a bit jaded.

 

[coley]

Snobbery? The RAF are a bunch of posers, and the Navy play with boats. The only REAL service is the army of course. (Well, we would include the Marines.)

Don't forget the RAF regt

 

[Sasaferrato]

Don't forget the RAF regt

The Rock Apes? To my perpetual annoyance, their Queen's Squadron has probably the best drill team in the world.

 

[dylanredefined]

The Rock Apes? To my perpetual annoyance, their Queen's Squadron has probably the best drill team in the world.

Just mention 5 miles of death and they shut up.

 

[friedaweed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...-to-remember-World-War-One.html#disqus_thread

Why British Muslims need a 'poppy hijab' to remember World War One
British Muslim student Tabinda-Kauser Ishaq (24) has created a new headscarf decorated with poppies for Remembrance Day. She tells Radhika Sanghani why and about the 400,000 Muslim soldiers who fought alongside UK troops

The comments are hotting up

 

[Pingu]

Don't forget the RAF regt

speshul forces dontcha know...

 

[8ball]

The comments are hotting up

Bizarre that actual human beings that probably look normal if you pass them in the street can put a story like this up on their website and open a comments thread, knowing exactly the kind of shit it will attract, and still do normal things like having a shave or eating a cooked meal without a single pang of insight or decency strong enough to compel them to slit their own throat.

 

[friedaweed]

Bizarre that actual human beings that probably look normal if you pass them in the street can put a story like this up on their website and open a comments thread, knowing exactly the kind of shit it will attract, and still do normal things like having a shave or eating a cooked meal without a single pang of insight or decency strong enough to compel them to slit their own throat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29832912

Video on the beeb too.

 

[seventh bullet]

They also helped Germans re arm and sold a lot of resources to Germany. Now I have no idea if Russia had no choice in having to do this someone with a better understanding of economics and history would argue better. How far the Nazis would have got in Europe if Stalin had not joined in carving up Poland is debatable. Obviously with hindsight everyone in Europe made the worst choices.

Soviet foreign policy in its broader long term goals was consistent throughout the Stalin era.

The pact gets used as an example of Stalin merely being an unprincipled opportunist. Flexible in tactics, too flexible some might argue, but true to the above. It was always for buying time in the hope enemy powers would weaken themselves to exhaustion through war with each other, then entry into that conflict at a favourable moment.

It doesn't really need saying that it turned into a massive fuck up for the Leader of the World Proletariat and endangered the USSR, something the established policy was designed to protect, but there we go.

 

[Thimble Queen]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...-to-remember-World-War-One.html#disqus_thread



The comments are hotting up

Muslims have to prove they are the 'right sort of muslims' tho innit. Make bold statements to say not in my name. Onus is on individual muslims to prove they are different to the 'bad ones'

 

[dylanredefined]

Soviet foreign policy in its broader long term goals was consistent throughout the Stalin era.

The pact gets used as an example of Stalin merely being an unprincipled opportunist. Flexible in tactics, too flexible some might argue, but true to the above. It was always for buying time in the hope enemy powers would weaken themselves to exhaustion through war with each other, then entry into that conflict at a favourable moment.

It doesn't really need saying that it turned into a massive fuck up for the Leader of the World Proletariat and endangered the USSR, something the established policy was designed to protect, but there we go.

The after effects of ww1 seems to have knocked the worlds intelligence for six. As with hindsight everyone made the worse decisions possible.