what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[butchersapron]

What actual use could they possible be except as decoys?
West and East Germany had no choice as anyone over a certain level had to join the party ,but, CIA and FBI has no excuse it is not like the Nazi's were any good at spying in the first place.

It literally says what in the excerpt.

 

[DotCommunist]

heres the full article

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/us/in-cold-war-us-spy-agencies-used-1000-nazis.html?_r=0

for those who CBA to read, a real gem is the recruitment by the CIA of Eichmanns top aide and mentor.

 

[Pickman's model]

What actual use could they possible be except as decoys?
West and East Germany had no choice as anyone over a certain level had to join the party ,but, CIA and FBI has no excuse it is not like the Nazi's were any good at spying in the first place.

yeh because you've looked into the matter at length and come to this considered conclusion

that's doubtless why general gehlen, late of the third reich, ran ops on the eastern front before spending many years in charge of west german intelligence

 

[dylanredefined]

heres the full article

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/us/in-cold-war-us-spy-agencies-used-1000-nazis.html?_r=0

for those who CBA to read, a real gem is the recruitment by the CIA of Eichmanns top aide and mentor.

Well using SS guys in east Germany is a good idea they speak the language, will probably be loyal, and if they do get caught nothing of value is lost.
Rest of them seem pretty useless.

 

[butchersapron]

Well using SS guys in east Germany is a good idea they speak the language, will probably be loyal, and if they do get caught nothing of value is lost.
Rest of them seem pretty useless.

Given that you don't know who they were, what their official roles were or where they operated i think you haven't really the necessary info to say this.

 

[dylanredefined]

yeh because you've looked into the matter at length and come to this considered conclusion

that's doubtless why general gehlen, late of the third reich, ran ops on the eastern front before spending many years in charge of west german intelligence

Who else would you get to do it?
Nazis contaminated all of Germany you couldn't rebuild the country without using people with links to the party.

 

[butchersapron]

Who else would you get to do it?
Nazis contaminated all of Germany you couldn't rebuild the country without using people with links to the party.

You just argued these people would be of no practical use. Two seconds later you have these same useless people successfully rebuilding the country.

 

[Pickman's model]

Who else would you get to do it?
Nazis contaminated all of Germany you couldn't rebuild the country without using people with links to the party.

and a lot of people with links to the party were nazis and all too often unrepentant

 

[Pickman's model]

You just argued these people would be of no practical use. Two seconds later you have these same useless people successfully rebuilding the country.

these useless BUT NOT NAZIS if yer man's to be believed

 

[toggle]

Is it me or has there been a lull this year in Poppy wearing witch hunts from sanctimonious windbags? Given the fact that its the WW1 outbreak centenary you would think it would have a higher profile this year. Am I being cynical to suggest the complex discussion about this key event is a bit too much effort for the tabloid armchair warriors? Especially for UKIPers: "We didn't fight two world wars to end up doing business in Europe in a peaceful manner"

the people i work for ae just about the number 1 demographic for that. and last year's rememberence sunday included the well recieved suggestion that half the country's problems could be fixed with one grenade. the idiots at the top overplayed their hand last year and they probably know it. hence the lack of similar bullshit this year

 

[DotCommunist]

Who else would you get to do it?
Nazis contaminated all of Germany you couldn't rebuild the country without using people with links to the party.

half the ex nazi judiciary went straight over to the same roles in allied west germany. Some people really got the justified hump about that one. warrant signers, black cap wearers, unrepentant nazis. Back in the judges seat

 

[Pickman's model]

Who else would you get to do it?
Nazis contaminated all of Germany you couldn't rebuild the country without using people with links to the party.

the country wouldn't have been destroyed in the first place without them

 

[andysays]

So, what have we learned on this thread then?

Wearing white poppies = Nazi appeaser, BAD
Sweeping under the carpet the activities of numerous ex-Nazis and sympathisers in Germany, USA and Britain (among other countries) and allowing them a significant role in post war states = necessary to rebuilding, GOOD

Give that man a poppy

 

[Idris2002]

The photo below is of a window display in a (rather good) independent Auckland bookshop I used to pass on my home from making students cry, and shows a window display they mounted in the run up to ANZAC day, which is when they wear the poppy in the southern hemisphere. I took this pic after I'd been walking behind what appeared to be a normal, everyday person, who took a sharp left turn and entered the shop to yell at the shop assistants that they shouldn't be glorifying militarism, or something similar:

 

[Pickman's model]

The photo below is of a window display in a (rather good) independent bookshop I used to pass on my home from making students cry, and shows a window display they mounted in the run up to ANZAC day, which is when they wear the poppy in the southern hemisphere. I took this pic after I'd been walking behind what appeared to be a normal, everyday person, who took a sharp left turn and entered the shop to yell at the shop assistants that they shouldn't be glorifying militarism, or something similar:

nice bren gun

 

[dylanredefined]

Given that you don't know who they were, what their official roles were or where they operated i think you haven't really the necessary info to say this.

I can only go ,by, what the article says.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In their campaigning and fund-raising, they dress smiling children in t-shirts saying 'future soldier'.

How many of those children will go on to be soldiers? They're making a point, that's all, and not one that promotes the military.

They are not a politically neutral organisation.

I haven't claimed that they are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

helping ex-servicemen ....... as has been discussed people may prefer the Gov to do it so that discussion is also political...

I'd love the government to take responsibility for providing for mentally-and physically-injured ex-service personnel. Unfortunately, in 300+ years of having a standing army, they haven't done so, which means that organisations like the RBL become quite important.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not in true sense a lobby group will lobby whoever is in power, politics is the seeking of power

Politics is interaction between individuals and/or collectives. You're talking about "power politics", as practiced by the political classes, whereas others are talking about general politically-involved behaviour - i.e. doing stuff for your community, questioning those who are supposed to represent you, etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The armed forces are the might, the enforcer, the physical embodiment of a political position. They are a political force.

They're a force directed by politics. They're not, in the sense that the police are, politicised, although it can't be denied that the officer corps has often shown a propensity for plotting to maintain reaction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

By your apparent reasoning about the armed forces, the police aren't political either, because "they're only there to uphold the laws of the land".

If you can see through that claim in the case of the police, I'm not sure why you can't see through it when it comes to the armed forces.

They're two different things, frankly. The armed forces (by which I mean the bulk of serving personnel, not the brass) aren't "political", they're a tool of politics. The police, on the other hand, are active participants in politics in their own right, through their own "interest groups" such as the Police Federation, the Black Police Association, ACPO etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's no point arguing with those who are thoroughly indoctrinated.

Which begs the question "why did Coley bother?".

 

[hipipol]

Which begs the question "why did Coley bother?".

cos he a cheap form of white fish?

 

[andysays]

They're two different things, frankly. The armed forces (by which I mean the bulk of serving personnel, not the brass) aren't "political", they're a tool of politics. The police, on the other hand, are active participants in politics in their own right, through their own "interest groups" such as the Police Federation, the Black Police Association, ACPO etc.

Yeah, they are two different things, and perhaps I might have better made the distinction between the institution of the armed forces (which is what I meant) and the bulk of serving personnel.

But are you really suggesting that "the Brass" don't act in any way whatever as their own interest group, all be it not as formally as ACPO etc?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, they are two different things, and perhaps I might have better made the distinction between the institution of the armed forces (which is what I meant) and the bulk of serving personnel.

But are you really suggesting that "the Brass" don't act in any way whatever as their own interest group, all be it not as formally as ACPO etc?

I'm suggesting that they don't have an overt forum, in the way that police brass do, and that that limits their ability to engage in politics. There's also the small matter of inter-services rivalry and snobbery, which means that the brass have never been as cohesive as the police brass.

 

[Sea Star]

Which begs the question "why did Coley bother?".

how am I indoctrinated?

 

[andysays]

I'm suggesting that they don't have an overt forum, in the way that police brass do, and that that limits their ability to engage in politics. There's also the small matter of inter-services rivalry and snobbery, which means that the brass have never been as cohesive as the police brass.

I take your points, but I think that's still a long way from saying that the armed forces as an institution aren't political at all.

 

[andysays]

how am I indoctrinated?

I think that was VP's idea of a joke, though admittedly it's a little difficult to tell sometimes

 

[pacha]

I was in the army as were/is my two sons, the idea of the Army as political organisation is laughable and I was in during that period and I never heard any mutinous rumblings, and thatcher knew better than to try using the army in 84.

Then you are a hero in my eyes!

You defended Queen & Country, you & your sons put your lives on the line, that just deserves so much respect

 

[butchersapron]

Then you are a hero in my eyes!

You defended Queen & Country, you & your sons put your lives on the line, that just deserves so much respect

You do believe in angels!

I thought you were banned anyway.