what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[Blagsta]

Is it, how is promoting the armed forces and helping ex servicemen "political"

Promoting a violent organisation that mainly exists to protect the interests of the ruling class isn't political?

 

[coley]

There are politics at local level of course. Lots of community politics of all kinds. There are politics In organisations too, internal politics.

You're saying that politics is solely confined to state electoral Politics of political parties and that's not the case.

No, I'm saying that's how most people see it, at least most of those I know,or who I have worked with.

 

[coley]

Promoting a violent organisation that mainly exists to protect the interests of the ruling class isn't political?

The RBL has no connection with the Met, AFAIK.

 

[Sea Star]

Right, so can we please put a stop to this "white poppy wearers are nazi appeasers" shit?

I know you didn't start it, but you appear to be continuing it.

This is why I didn't want to discuss this! Oh um!

 

[Pickman's model]

Is it, how is promoting the armed forces and helping ex servicemen "political"

you do know that, as clausewitz said, war is the continuation of politics by other means?

 

[coley]

you do know that, as clausewitz said, war is the continuation of politics by other means?

Aye.

 

[Pickman's model]

Aye.

so the armed forces, as the instrument of that, are political.

 

[cesare]

The RBL has no connection with the Met, AFAIK.

Which other violent organisation exists to protect mainly the interests of the ruling class?

 

[Scutta]

That's like saying a lobby group is political, political is when you pursue a political agenda at some level, IMO.

 

[coley]

No, the armed forces are apolitical, they are used to do the bidding of the elected goverment if they refused because they didn't like the hue of a particular government, then that would be political.

 

[coley]

Which other violent organisation exists to protect mainly the interests of the ruling class?

Apart from the police? None that I know of.

 

[cesare]

No, the armed forces are apolitical, they are used to do the bidding of the elected goverment if they refused because they didn't like the hue of a particular government, then that would be political.

The armed forces are the might, the enforcer, the physical embodiment of a political position. They are a political force.

 

[cesare]

Apart from the police? None that I know of.

The armed services.

 

[andysays]

we're not political, we're only doing the bidding of the elected government

The armed forces are, at the very least, used as a political instrument.

 

[Scutta]

, they are used to do the bidding of the elected goverment.

which is still political

 

[coley]

The armed forces are the might, the enforcer, the physical embodiment of a political position. They are a political force.

I would disagree,they are an instrument of the ruling political power,now if we had an army that was in the habit of mounting coup d'états then you would have a point.

 

[andysays]

Apart from the police? None that I know of.

By your apparent reasoning about the armed forces, the police aren't political either, because "they're only there to uphold the laws of the land".

If you can see through that claim in the case of the police, I'm not sure why you can't see through it when it comes to the armed forces.

 

[Lo Siento.]

No, the armed forces are apolitical, they are used to do the bidding of the elected goverment if they refused because they didn't like the hue of a particular government, then that would be political.

How "apolitical" do you reckon the army would have been if it any point we'd elected a government they didn't fancy? Say Benn had won the 1976 Labour leadership election and started nationalising everything in sight?

 

[coley]

How "apolitical" do you reckon the army would have been if it any point we'd elected a government they didn't fancy? Say Benn had won the 1976 Labour leadership election and started nationalising everything in sight?

I was in the army as were/is my two sons, the idea of the Army as political organisation is laughable and I was in during that period and I never heard any mutinous rumblings, and thatcher knew better than to try using the army in 84.

 

[cesare]

I would disagree,they are an instrument of the ruling political power,now if we had an army that was in the habit of mounting coup d'états then you would have a point.

Why do you see the police as different?

And, why is carrying out politics not political?

 

[coley]

Answered above.

 

[cesare]

Answered above.

No, it's not. The armed forces and the police carry out the will of the politicians. They are political because they are the force of politics. They are not freestanding - they are agents of the state.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I was in the army as were/is my two sons, the idea of the Army as political organisation is laughable and I was in during that period and I never heard any mutinous rumblings, and thatcher knew better than to try using the army in 84.

Erm... the British government has used the army various times to break strikes both before and after WW2. Also, if Thatcher had used them in the miners' strike they'd likely have done as they were told, exactly as they did all the other times they were used in similar circumstances. Finally, there were plenty of ex-forces involved in the various plots to overthrow Wilson in the 1970s, so it's hardly implausible that similar people would've taken it further if Benn had become PM.

I'm not arguing that most individual soldiers are political. The institution definitely is, both in terms of its inherent nature and in terms of directly involving itself in the political process.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I'm not political. I just do violent things on the orders of politicians.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I disagree with your opinion, because I think politics is an activity that's not necessarily about seeking power but often about seeking influence on an outcome which may be related to governance but not necessarily.

Please make sure that are accurately separating 'politics' and 'politicians'. Two different animals. If you substitute one for the other in Coley's posts...

 

[cesare]

Please make sure that are accurately separating 'politics' and 'politicians'. Two different animals. If you substitute one for the other in Coley's posts...

Are you suggesting that what coley means is that only politicians carry out politics?

 

[Blagsta]

Apart from the police? None that I know of.

Whose interests did the Iraq war serve?

 

[Blagsta]

I would disagree,they are an instrument of the ruling political power

Yes, isn't that what I said?

 

[Sea Star]

There's no point arguing with those who are thoroughly indoctrinated.

 

[dylanredefined]

Erm... the British government has used the army various times to break strikes both before and after WW2. Also, if Thatcher had used them in the miners' strike they'd likely have done as they were told, exactly as they did all the other times they were used in similar circumstances. Finally, there were plenty of ex-forces involved in the various plots to overthrow Wilson in the 1970s, so it's hardly implausible that similar people would've taken it further if Benn had become PM.

I'm not arguing that most individual soldiers are political. The institution definitely is, both in terms of its inherent nature and in terms of directly involving itself in the political process.

The coup plots from the 70,s supposedly failed when no serving officer was prepared to go along with it. Though of course no proof either way.