What are you baking?

[mrs quoad]

Yeah. (I am really clueless and too impatient to read any blogs properly)

Look, no, you're fine! There are basic things that can properly help. Thumbs.

What's your recipe, roughly? Assuming it's not very odd...

Allow your starter (if kept in fridge) to get to room temp before mixing in. Feed 6-18hrs before use. No longer! Or re-feed. And feed it with approximately 9 times it's weight. (So I tip out all but a dribble, feed it w 200g flour / 160 of white wheat flour).

That'll get it active!

Most of the rest is down to gluten development, internal structure (folding it), and timing.

Mine'll usually have 20-40 mins autolyse, 2hrs bulk proving (all dough together, in a big oiled b&q plastic tub, folded every half hour), 20 mins in a pre-shape on a counter, and another 90-120mins in a banneton. Bout 5hrs start to end.

If it's not over or underproved by that point, you should be getting about as good a rise as you're going to get.

The only other thing I'd suggest is getting a probe thermometer. Cuts out the guesswork from cooking - 200-205 internal temp and it certainly won't be too damp inside!

 

[polly]

Look, no, you're fine! There are basic things that can properly help. Thumbs.

What's your recipe, roughly? Assuming it's not very odd...

Allow your starter (if kept in fridge) to get to room temp before mixing in. Feed 6-18hrs before use. No longer! Or re-feed. And feed it with approximately 9 times it's weight. (So I tip out all but a dribble, feed it w 200g flour / 160 of white wheat flour).

That'll get it active!

Most of the rest is down to gluten development, internal structure (folding it), and timing.

Mine'll usually have 20-40 mins autolyse, 2hrs bulk proving (all dough together, in a big oiled b&q plastic tub, folded every half hour), 20 mins in a pre-shape on a counter, and another 90-120mins in a banneton. Bout 5hrs start to end.

If it's not over or underproved by that point, you should be getting about as good a rise as you're going to get.

The only other thing I'd suggest is getting a probe thermometer. Cuts out the guesswork from cooking - 200-205 internal temp and it certainly won't be too damp inside!

Oh blimey. That's quite different, isn't it Thank you very much for all this. My proving times are much longer and I have only been chucking half my starter and then doubling what's left.

After this loaf, I'll try your way, ta! I've got a thermometer so I'll do that, though it wasn't too damp inside, just a bit flat.

*goes off to google banneton* eta a basket

 

[mrs quoad]

AND put it in the oven when it's reached 1.5 times its size (not doubled) AND throw in a big cup of water against the oven sides for steam!

Steam stops the crust from setting; crust limits rise; so lots of steam at the outset gives better oven spring / a better rise.

Edit: and bannetons are chuffing awesome. TBH wouldn't worry too much about 50% in initial starter mix, but I was definitely encouraged to go way low by my baking course (they have scrapings of starter left at the end of the day for triple figure loaf bakes!) and it works superbly for me!

 

[TruXta]

Quoad, you ever use that Khorasan flour in a sourdough? Tried it once and it turned into some abominable yellow turd that was a right pain to get out of my Creuset.

 

[mrs quoad]

I follow this one, very roughly Simple sourdough loaves

But found his quantities for the sponge far too dry, so I used more water, about 2 cups I think last time.

I must be missing something - that seems to have 5 cups of flour to 1 cup of starter (ok) and half a cup of water?!?

 

[kittyP]

bonus points for pretty and/or pretty disastrous.

Absolutely but if one feels happy with something or has just done something new or whatever, it's all good brothers and sisters

 

[mrs quoad]

Quoad, you ever use that Khorasan flour in a sourdough? Tried it once and it turned into some abominable yellow turd that was a right pain to get out of my Creuset.

Yeah. A few times.

Our local "artisan baker" (whose course I went on) used to confuse the shit outta me, bc he'd be selling all these loaves that were, like, KHORASAN EINKORN AND EMMER HERITAGE LOAF or RYE EINKORN AND EMMER and so forth.

And they were fucking spectacularly risen. Like huge, bouncy loaves that looked basically white.

And I used to talk about this with a baking friend, and I was all like "no wai dude I have totally baked with that shit and it can't be!!!" And he was all like "but maybe the baker has magic fingers or adds gluten!!!" And I was all like "hmmmm."

Then I went on his baking course, and it turns out that none of these loaves contained more than 30% interesting / low gluten flour. And they were all basically 70% white.

So, yeah. Have thrown a fair bit of khorasan in a fair few loaves. Think I also tried the "no knead" recipe on the back once. (Recall it as a failure). But probably wouldn't try a 100% khorasan again.

 

[TruXta]

Sounds familiar (the failure bit). Curious to know if you can do a good sourdough with only wholemeal flour? Or will it inevitably shear the gluten into shorter strands and end up dense?

 

[mrs quoad]

Oh blimey. That's quite different, isn't it Thank you very much for all this. My proving times are much longer and I have only been chucking half my starter and then doubling what's left.

This pic?



a) that's a banneton in the background!
b) there is *no* oven spring on that loaf (the slashes have not filled out at all - they're just how they were when slashed) which, as identified a page or so back (see OU's photo and sequelae) almost certainly means it's overproved, given the 6hr leave (and total lack of water - that weirds the fuck outta me. Is it really, like, half a cup water to 5 cups flour?!?! I must be missing sth.)

I am totally weirded out by that recipe. 0.5cups water to 5 cups flour? I'm going to go and re-check.

 

[polly]

I must be missing something - that seems to have 5 cups of flour to 1 cup of starter (ok) and half a cup of water?!?

Yes! I think it must be a typo. The first time I did it, I thought it looked really dry but didn't know what a sponge was meant to look like. Then had a realisation that it was balls and chucked in a load of water halfway through And it still turned out ok. I think I have low standards. But now using much more water than that.

Just peeked at it and it's doubled in size. Phew

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm gonna try and get my loaf on tomorrow and make a loaf without a tin. So used to using tins though. And they make the right size sandwiches/toast.

 

[polly]

This pic?

View attachment 98427

a) that's a banneton in the background!
b) there is *no* oven spring on that loaf (the slashes have not filled out at all - they're just how they were when slashed) which, as identified a page or so back (see OU's photo and sequelae) almost certainly means it's overproved, given the 6hr leave (and total lack of water - that weirds the fuck outta me. Is it really, like, half a cup water to 5 cups flour?!?! I must be missing sth.)

I am totally weirded out by that recipe. 0.5cups water to 5 cups flour? I'm going to go and re-check.

I know right, the bread looks shit But the blog came recommended on the thread somewhere on this forum, and I like his slapdash approach. After I adapted his recipe and used much more water it's come out well - nice and bubbly and my slashes filled out. But I'm sure it has a long way to go.

 

[mrs quoad]

Sounds familiar (the failure bit). Curious to know if you can do a good sourdough with only wholemeal flour? Or will it inevitably shear the gluten into shorter strands and end up dense?

I am almost invariably slightly disappointed by 100% wholemeal. Doesn't always stop me. But, yeah. Significantly stodgier.

Top end of my interest is usually proving / baking methods. Either going for a crackly top or a sunflower. Either of which tend to make me feel that at least I've done something to make the stodgy prettier.

Sunflower:

(Sadly had a wholemeal one last night but ate it w/o pics!) [edit: oh. Second thoughts, that top one is blates wholemeal).

Crackly:

^^^rye and light rye mix. Not the best example. But ay.

 

[TruXta]

Just how much bread do you get through in a week?

 

[mrs quoad]

Sounds familiar (the failure bit). Curious to know if you can do a good sourdough with only wholemeal flour? Or will it inevitably shear the gluten into shorter strands and end up dense?

This is a bit of a cop out response, but my main flour is an "84% strong white." (16% of the wheatgerm and whatever left in / re-added).

TBH, it's about as wholemeal as most commercial wholemeal, which says something.

But it has pretty close to the strength of strong white.

 

[TruXta]

Cheers.

 

[kittyP]

mrs quoad even though you might not be totally happy with how your loaves turn out, generally are they OK eating though?

 

[mrs quoad]

mrs quoad even though you might not be totally happy with how your loaves turn out, generally are they OK eating though?

I make 2kg most evenings, probably a kg goes to the ducks most weekends, and virtually none gets binned.

So something's going ok!

(Wife won't eat sourdough, mind. So it's me, the toddler and work colleagues mostly. And, well. She'll eat the pizzas and focaccias. Which are an important part of the load!)

 

[Orang Utan]

How do you eat your bread, mrs quoad?

 

[mrs quoad]

I'm gonna try and get my loaf on tomorrow and make a loaf without a tin. So used to using tins though. And they make the right size sandwiches/toast.

Keep it in something that will allow it to keep its shape for as long as possible. TBH, a loaf tin would probably work!

Flour it, and the surfaces of your dough that will contact it, heavily with white / light (same thing) rye. It doesn't stick / absorb water at all easily.

Flop it out, slash it, and oven it ASAP - the hotter the surface it hits, the better it'll retain its shape. (This is where baking stones help!)

Edit:

How do you eat your bread, mrs quoad?

Any way it comes, w croutons made from leftovers Rarely have two days of baking the same thing either. At the very least, alternating bog standard w fruit and / or focaccia, ciabatta and pizzas. It all ends up going!

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't want flour all over it though. Not at the end anyway. And I'll be using normal bread flour.

 

[TruXta]

I don't want flour all over it though. Not at the end anyway. And I'll be using normal bread flour.

You tell him girl.

 

[Orang Utan]

Btw most bread I eat is made in the machine, but it makes for too big slices, hence my desire to shape it myself. I would normally use a tin, but the tins got chucked when the bread machine was bought.

 

[mrs quoad]

I don't want flour all over it though. Not at the end anyway. And I'll be using normal bread flour.

Ok - letting the breadmaker do all the work except the baking?

Otherwise / if you're final proving it anywhere other than a breadmaker you'll have difficulties keeping the dough in anything it won't stick to (whilst it proves). And most flours will stick both to the dough and to the bowl it's proving in, hence rye. Oil also works! But then there's an oily loaf at the end rather than a floury one.

Obvs only relevant if proving in owt other than a breadmaker!

 

[Orang Utan]

It's going in the oven not the breadmaker

 

[Orang Utan]

Never had any real problem with it sticking in the bowl whilst it's rising. Plastic is better than glass/earthenware though.
Bread doesn't stick to bread tins either, but I don't have a bread tin, so the only thing it might stick to is the tray in the oven.

 

[mrs quoad]

It's going in the oven not the breadmaker

Yeah. There's stuff that needs doing before it goes in an oven (mixing, proving, etc) all of which can be done by a breadmaker (with the dough ball then taken out and cooked in an oven). Which would be one way of avoiding any of the problem so described below!

I suspect that you'll otherwise find it pretty hard to make a loaf with any shape - because it will struggle to hold that shape (or retain any height) whilst it proves or, if you put it in anything shaped, it'll stick to it and won't come out without destroying everything you'd so far created.

I'd be very happy to be proved otherwise, and interested to hear how those problems could be avoided!

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm just going to make it by hand. The breadmaker will not be used.
Mix in a plastic bowl, knead properly on a floured surface (the fun part), rise in warm place with teatowel over it, briefly but delicately knead again, leave to rise a bit longer, shape, bung on tray, bake. That's how my mum always did it.

 

[polly]

Prettiest one so far, but not very good as I got so engrossed in reading about sourdough that I missed a step. The irony and then under cooked it because we were hungry this morning. Edible though and will make nice toast tomorrow.

 

[Biddlybee]

*books train ticket*