welfare state breakdown

[jonajuna]

blah

 

[Blagsta]

ok, well it is now or at least will be very very soon


the doors that way if it is unacceptable to you>>>>>>>>>>


... it would be a shame to leave the job because of having to comprimise your principles in one tiny area and deprive your clients of all the other skills you have to offer

You must really hate your clients!

 

[jonajuna]

blah

 

[Blagsta]

in your world it may be that way, for us in the lower level working classes, if you fuck up you get sacked.

with healthcare professionals its very much based on an ability to do the job (as well as know the theory underpinnign why you would do the job in that way)..

same in construction, same in retail, engineering and so on

hmmmm, there's a lot of shit drugworkers about

 

[smokedout]

i work 9-5 and so does my wife 3 days a week...... because we have to to earn the money we need to earn to pay for our home, food, bills.....

if i worked 9-5 then i would never see my son, who lives on the other end of the country to me

not that its any of your business, i just mention it to point out that peoples needs are diverse and complex

and thats exactly what the problem is with your attitude and this new legislation

its an attack on the most vulnerable, it wont help anyone, it will make things worse and what will actually happen in practice is it will be fudged, blagged and nothing will actually change except that some of the poorest most vulnerable people in the country will end up poorer and more vulnerable

you dont give a person a hand up by kicking them whilst they're down and that's exactly what the new scheme will do

 

[smokedout]

unlike yourself, we dont feel it is morraly acceptable to expect others to support us

i'm sure your wife could speak for herself

but, if youd been paying attnetion, youd have noticed that i said im on working tax credit, not jsa or ib

do you have a problem with in work benefits as well - i work, should i now be punished for not earning enough

 

[jonajuna]

blah

 

[jonajuna]

blah

 

[jonajuna]

blah

 

[smokedout]

yes im blowing my own trumpet, because i work fucking hard, i work well (can always do better) and i object to a being told "i must be hated by my clients" by a drugs worker who doesnt even know what her job is really all about

ok?

just because you work hard doesnt mean you are good at your job

now are you able to address any of the points ive put to you without it resorting to an argument of one upmanship which only seems to end in you telling us all how wonderful you are and how shit all the rest of us are

 

[smokedout]

with that and your previous post in mind.. as your child is so far away, how does working part time help? why are you choosing to live so far away?

i have a child (well he is 22 soon... eek!) that i was seprated from (i paid maintainence even before the existence of the CSA... its wasnt my choice to do so, it was my responsibility as his father) i had weekend access (defined as sat 12noon til sun 5pm) working full time didnt prevent me from having him with me from after school on friday til sunday 5pm.... i lived 60 miles away

im even more confused now... you dont have even shared custody?.. i thought you were a single parent with full time care....


you know what, i dont care

good, because im not about to relate the intimate details of my life to some sad fuck on the net

the point is you support legislation that will only serve to fuck up your clients lives more, you have a whining indignation about the fact that some people may be on benefits for reasons you dont understand and you assume that everyone should follow the same happy clappy new labour proscribed bullshit that you have lapped up like the pathetic lapdog you are

 

[smokedout]

enjoy the labour state while it lasts, the tories will oh so clealry be in next may

than you will ahve something to compalin about

as will you because youll probably be out of a job

 

[jonajuna]

as will you because youll probably be out of a job

what ever you say

 

[smokedout]

what ever you say

well you are in one of those politically correct positions that the tories have railed against

the tories were quite happy with high unemployment, whilst they may have made occasional soundbites they were well aware that keeping a percentage of the population on benefits and in poverty was in the interests of those who control labour

it was people like you who lost their jobs and it will be again under a tory government

scabs get shot first by the powers that be, always have, always will

 

[jonajuna]

what ever you say

but to keep you happy

the tories like a big bang for their buck

i have high value skills but only attract a low value wage

to explain.. i can do everything a (staff grade) doctor can do (within the limits of my speciality) but at 50% of the cost

so... i think my post is safe as i can nurse, key work, supervise, drug screen and do all those nursey and drug worker things AND i can write out scripts for the drugs my clients need to break the link between addicition and criminality

my job is safe, the tories like drugs treatments albeit in quite restrictive formats

if i was a doctor or drugs worker (ie didnt have nursing qualifications and a prescribing license) meaning i was either expensive or of limited usefulness.... then i would be concerned

e2a: it was during the last tory government that drug services started to become meaningful with drug policy moving away from wholly punitive culture throughout the late 70's and early 80's culminating in the 10 year drug strategy at the start of 1998 (devised in the tory house, implemented under labour)

 

[jiggajagga]

Just read this posting. Very interesting points of view.
Jonajuna I say to you; don't get ill, don't get injured, don't lose your job in an emplyment blackspot, don't get older and you will be fine in this 'green and pleasant land, this England'.

Oh and you are the type of cunt that I despise by the way. All you care about is yourself, yourself and er.....yourself. (otherwise known as a tory).

I wrote on these boards 2 yrs ago that we are sleepwalking into a nightmare by allowing governments to do what they wished with the unemployed and sick, that we had to fight back in any way we could.
Well, the chickens are coming home to roost I fear! Just wait till the tories like jonajuna get into power next year. You ain't seen nothin' yet folks!

 

[Carousel]

Oh and you are the type of cunt that I despise by the way. All you care about is yourself, yourself and er.....yourself. (otherwise known as a tory).

Well given they’re about 40% of the electorate, it would appear the real misanthrope is actually you. Here’s a question, what percentage of the average income should be given to the unemployed and sick do you think?

 

[jiggajagga]

Well given they’re about 40% of the electorate, it would appear the real misanthrope is actually you. Here’s a question, what percentage of the average income should be given to the unemployed and sick do you think?

It isn't the level that is the real problem as far as I can see ( and yes I am disabled and ill) its the constant threat to remove benefit from people when even my doctor loses patience with the politicians.
As someone who depends on the welfare state I do not ask for more than any working person, just a bit of decency in understanding that many people are genuinely ill and in varying degrees of pain every day and genuinely unemployed in blackspot areas like where I live where 20 vacancies at a local centre drew over 800 applications for a minimum wage job.
The last thing I need ( and am getting from the likes of jonjona and yourself) are platitudes!
All benefit claimants are evil.
All benefit claimants are scroungers
I was 45, fit as a fiddle, never been out of work then BANG! one drunken driver later my life is changed for ever and here we are! 13 years of agony and pain where I don't know until I wake if I can get up and about this fine day. Would you employ someone like me?

"There is no such a thing as the truth, there are only perceptions of truth"

 

[Carousel]

OK. So aren’t you just making the usual moral choice argument for greater provision for life’s victims of circumstance? I mean, fair play, given your situation and values, campaign away for a bigger share of the pie if you like but the idea that you hold the correct appraisal of “decency” is a bit magic and delusional isn’t it. I mean, it would be easy enough for me to construct an even more altruistic and self-righteous take on it all and hold you to account for being such a selfish degenerate. Questions of justice are essentially contestable: to declare 40% of the electorate as indecently selfish sounds like the ranting of a religious maniac. Repent Sodom for the end is nigh.

 

[Awesome Wells]

for want of the price, of tea and a slice, the old man died.

 

[trevhagl]

if i worked 9-5 then i would never see my son, who lives on the other end of the country to me

not that its any of your business, i just mention it to point out that peoples needs are diverse and complex

and thats exactly what the problem is with your attitude and this new legislation

its an attack on the most vulnerable, it wont help anyone, it will make things worse and what will actually happen in practice is it will be fudged, blagged and nothing will actually change except that some of the poorest most vulnerable people in the country will end up poorer and more vulnerable

you dont give a person a hand up by kicking them whilst they're down and that's exactly what the new scheme will do

Very true and the worst thing is no one will change it because none of the politicians have any knowledge of what it's like.

 

[trevhagl]

what ever you say

but to keep you happy

the tories like a big bang for their buck

i have high value skills but only attract a low value wage

to explain.. i can do everything a (staff grade) doctor can do (within the limits of my speciality) but at 50% of the cost

so... i think my post is safe as i can nurse, key work, supervise, drug screen and do all those nursey and drug worker things AND i can write out scripts for the drugs my clients need to break the link between addicition and criminality

my job is safe, the tories like drugs treatments albeit in quite restrictive formats

if i was a doctor or drugs worker (ie didnt have nursing qualifications and a prescribing license) meaning i was either expensive or of limited usefulness.... then i would be concerned

e2a: it was during the last tory government that drug services started to become meaningful with drug policy moving away from wholly punitive culture throughout the late 70's and early 80's culminating in the 10 year drug strategy at the start of 1998 (devised in the tory house, implemented under labour)

Fuck help anyone if you WERE a doctor - can you imagine trying to get a sick note!

 

[trevhagl]

well you are in one of those politically correct positions that the tories have railed against

the tories were quite happy with high unemployment, whilst they may have made occasional soundbites they were well aware that keeping a percentage of the population on benefits and in poverty was in the interests of those who control labour

it was people like you who lost their jobs and it will be again under a tory government

scabs get shot first by the powers that be, always have, always will

Another top post

 

[trevhagl]

Just read this posting. Very interesting points of view.
Jonajuna I say to you; don't get ill, don't get injured, don't lose your job in an emplyment blackspot, don't get older and you will be fine in this 'green and pleasant land, this England'.

Oh and you are the type of cunt that I despise by the way. All you care about is yourself, yourself and er.....yourself. (otherwise known as a tory).

I wrote on these boards 2 yrs ago that we are sleepwalking into a nightmare by allowing governments to do what they wished with the unemployed and sick, that we had to fight back in any way we could.
Well, the chickens are coming home to roost I fear! Just wait till the tories like jonajuna get into power next year. You ain't seen nothin' yet folks!

sad but very very true...

 

[Carousel]

Very true and the worst thing is no one will change it because none of the politicians have any knowledge of what it's like.

It’s a bit of myth I reckon that their position is due to them not being aware of the level of suffering. More that they have a different take when it comes to the extent to which that suffering should be mitigated. It may just be case that their position is closer to the “average” punter’s view, and you harbour an eccentric compassion perhaps through some sentimental identification with the weak or otherwise inept. ‘course it ties in with some arbitrary idea of innocence and guilt and moral choice. If you could find some stain on their character, even if limited only to their abhorrent opinions on this-or-that, their suffering would be fair game no doubt.

sad but very very true...

Oh don’t tell me you’re another sanctimonious bastion of righteousness who believes 40% of the electorate are indecently selfish. It really is like a western with plucky underdog goodies and bully boy baddies in there isn’t it.

 

[smokedout]

It’s a bit of myth I reckon that their position is due to them not being aware of the level of suffering. More that they have a different take when it comes to the extent to which that suffering should be mitigated.

i was in regular contact with the regional ES manager for SE England in the job i mentioned earlier, he in turn reported at ministerial level direct to the DWP

he was a nice bloke, really enthused about all the wonderful training opportunities etc that was going on, i got the impression he'd never set foot in a job centre in his life

during a contract negotiation in which they were trying to inflict the fantasy that we could people off the streets and into work in 12 weeks I pointed out that I was working with the people he stepped over every morning on his way to work (we were both in Kings Cross)

he admitted he'd never thought of it that way and was shocked how many of them were on jsa when they clearly should be on IB

the point being that the people at the top live in a bubble and just dont have the capacity to empathise and understand the people they hand out their various dictacts to

 

[Carousel]

Oh ok. The bourge are nice at heart and if only we could raise their consciousness and get them to realise how hard it was down here everything would be much better. Of course. Hey, why not just get Sting from the Police to adopt them as pets. He's as empathetic as they come. 'Course this manager of yours wouldn’t just be humouring you and placating you by flattering your values to smooth the implementation of the very outcome originally planned all along now would he? Oh no. Never happens.

 

[jiggajagga]

for want of the price, of tea and a slice, the old man died.

What an album!!

 

[jiggajagga]

to declare 40% of the electorate as indecently selfish sounds like the ranting of a religious maniac. Repent Sodom for the end is nigh.

Of course we are you idiot. Thats why we are fucked by the bankers, why we are fucked over climate change. WE are too selfish to change for the betterment of all...just for the individual!
We are all Doooomed doooomed I tells yah!

Ever read the Selfish Gene?

"Intelligent life on a planet comes of age when it first works out the reason for its own existence"

 

[jonajuna]

Of course we are you idiot. Thats why we are fucked by the bankers, why we are fucked over climate change. WE are too selfish to change for the betterment of all...just for the individual!
We are all Doooomed doooomed I tells yah!

the desire to "share" is proportional to how little you have

the less you have, the more appealing sharing 'all - equally' becomes

funny that.....

Ever read the Selfish Gene?

nope