welfare state breakdown

[ViolentPanda]

perhaps he could get a job and stop living off my taxes?

Perhaps, like me, he paid his taxes for a good long time and is merely expecting the state to fulfil its part in the social contract that allows the state to deduct taxes in the first place?

there are very few illnesses/disabilities that prevent any work

An expert on illness and disability, are you?
Or just another gobshite mouthing off "received wisdom" because they've heard some muppet in the media spouting off?

 

[smokedout]

a few are sure, but id wager that many if not most of the c3000000 (or approx 9% of working age adults) that are on IB could do at least some part time work. plenty of evidence to show that a meaningful activity improves health and social function.

also, most ill health is fairly shortlived, so the claimants would be on the sick not IB

what is on the sick as opposed to IB?

the first 2 are illegal so thus not really classifiable as employment, they certainly are not subject to PAYE, the 3rd pays rather quite well so i understand. the argument you present is a tad extreme in its extension of logic, there are plenty of other jobs out there.. maybe not that attractive, but id rather shovel shit (to be equally as extreme) than to be unemployed for in excess of 6 months (qualifying period for IB)

prostitution is legal and subject to self-assessed tax

the reason they pay doctors so much (and it will be them assessing work capabilities) is because they are skilled in making such assessments

its already doctors making these assessments, peoples GPs who have a far greater understanding of the individual than some jumped up state lacky

or are you saying that currently GPs are lying about people's ability to work

see thats your job when you are unemployed.. to find work.... anyone that puts in a full working week to finding employment is likely to find employment (untill all of those off work do the same, then i'll understand people being out of work (i do understand that those people post 50 finding work becomes much more difficult, but it can still be done))

ive worked with peole who've applied for hundreds of jobs without success

you really are full of shit and not very clever

 

[smokedout]

Your clients must hate you.

still, its only a matter of time before one of those clients gives him a practical lesson in exactly what a cunt he is

 

[ViolentPanda]

not really

im not rich, im a nursey in the public sector. the only time i was ever unemployed was through choice, in my teens, when i was lazy.

the point of esa is to get people off the sick and into work. there clearly is work here as we are still one of the most attractive countries in European for migrant workers

surely people wouldn't come here to not work?

That's a somewhat lazy interpretation of the situation, but one that sits well with your politics.
We're not "one of the most attractive" destinations. Germany, France and Spain beat us hands down, and the reason we have significant EU "internal migration" for work is that there are more opportunities to work in the "grey economy" in the UK than in most of the older EU states, not because our terms and conditions of employment are so appealing.

any job has to be better than no job

Big steaming pile of horse-shit. If you were made redundant today, would you take a job shovelling shit for minimum wage tomorrow, or would you attempt to bide your time to secure yourself a better berth?

and if you are capable of working, you should

To please the likes of you? I don't think so.

fucking hate these "aint my fault i aint got no work, its my right to have benefits"

And how many people do you think actually have that attitude?
Now, I'm aware of the figures the NAO and the ONS have produced for the so-called "hardcore unemployed", but lets see whether you're "on the money" or way out there in right-wing tabloidfantasyland!

yeah? well know what? it my right to call you a lazy fcuk for living off the taxes i pay thorugh earning the money i work for

smoke that in your neolazyarse pipe

Me, I paid taxes for decades, I was disabled serving my country, and I've never, and never will, begrudge "my taxes" (and yes, I still pay IT and NI even though I don't work) supporting those who are out of work for one reason or another.
Oh, and don't assume that anyone to the left of you supports new labour. That's the kind of lazy thinking obe only expects from intellectually-challenged right-wingers with no capacity to think for themselves.

 

[jonajuna]

Clearly. I work with people with learning disabilities and I've found that even where they do want to work and are able to do so, many businesses regard them as basically being too much hassle to bother with employing..

i agree and that is wrong, but there are also a lot that dont think that way

Contrary to popular belief, it's not actually that easy to claim benefits these days, particularly IB. DWP doctors are not well known for their capacity for empath or their listening skills.

3 million people seem to have found the doctors you say dont exist

Not all, no. But I'd rather give people with a doctors note the benefit of the doubt than have the system we're moving towards now, where sick people are actively hassled and berated for not being in work.

if people are medically supported in not being able to work, they are not hassled. if the person does not have medical evidence to support their stance they cant work, well then it speaks for itself

Not everybody has access to appropriate childcare. It's not easy to afford chldcare for a child under 3 if you've no family to help out and the only job you can find is stacking shelves 16 hours a week in Asda, which is the experience of many single parents round my way.

child tax creidts, child care vouchers.... the whole ssytem is designed to mean you are better off by working than not.. it may only be by a few quid, but still better.. better for you by a few quid, better for the state as you are actively financially contributing... better for you as you will avoid any of the "hassle to work etc"

Not everybody is able to provide for their kids financially without help though. They are still providing an important contribution to society by raising their kids (sprogs making it to adulthood being a necessity if human society is to carry on existing and all).

if you cant afford to have children, maybe you shouldnt make them in the first place? you say we need kids yet other threads on here shout about how the planet cannot sustain the growth of the human race...... 3 fold increase in last fifty years... and growing

i accept that there are more post retirement people than youngsters and workers as time goes on, this poses a problem... a problem that cannot be sorted by having families living on welfare payments.. that just compunds financial problems

Child rearing is not an individual act, it's the responsibility of society as a whole.

providing for a childs needs is the responsibility of the parent(s) when the parent fails to do that then its societies responsibility.

we disagree on fundamental issues. but thats cool its how a democratic society should be

plus you cant help being wrong

 

[Carousel]

Child rearing is not an individual act, it's the responsibility of society as a whole.

So it’s written on the sacred pillar at the centre of the cosmos. Does this mean we get to take turns on the brood mares to make babies as well as rearing ‘em? It’s obviously just another lefty anorak rouse to lose their virginity. Or perhaps just to hide from blame.

 

[jonajuna]

Your clients must hate you.

no and why would they? my polictical self is detatched from my professional self

in fact thats a professional requirement of my code of conduct

still, its only a matter of time before one of those clients gives him a practical lesson in exactly what a cunt he is

the advocation of violence again....... no wonder people like me struggle to hear the "reasonable points" you and other like you make.

does everything and everyone that doesnt share your view of the world deserve to be met with violence?

if so, you are the "cunt"

 

[Blagsta]

no and why would they? my polictical self is detatched from my professional self

in fact thats a professional requirement of my code of conduct

You don't seem to have much understanding of the issues involved in long term unemployment and mental health. Funny stance for a drug worker.

 

[Carousel]

my polictical self is detatched from my professional self

Interesting perspective as it happens. Demonstrates an indifference that the average “passionate” politico is psychologically unable to appreciate. Their values and beliefs are bound so tight to their sense of self, they'd see that detachment as oppressive or even humiliating and shameful. “We’re not political, we’re only doing our job” as they used to chant back at the OB.

You don't seem to have much understanding of the issues involved in long term unemployment and mental health.

Not essentially contestable "issues" of justice again are they by any chance?

 

[jonajuna]

what is on the sick as opposed to IB?

ssp as opposed to IB, you know or you should being the expert in these tyhings

ssp is what you are on for the six months of being ill before being able to claim IB

prostitution is legal and subject to self-assessed tax

legal or 'not illegal'? would paying tax on it make the state be liable to "living off immoral earnings"

clearly no-one in sane mind would advocate forcing people into this line of work

its already doctors making these assessments, peoples GPs who have a far greater understanding of the individual than some jumped up state lacky

really? the days of a gp knowing a person from "cradle to grave" are gone in the whole, what with locums.. practices being run on business model and the maximum 10 minute appt slot

but, just so you know, most of those "jumped up state lackys" are often GP's doing a little work on the side... either way the assessment process will be the same and they will both be governed by the same GMC

or are you saying that currently GPs are lying about people's ability to work

no, i am saying that in 10 minutes when you have a queue of 50 people to see that day, plus home visits, plus your admin, plus your own needs.. its hard to give proper attention to the process.. certainly not as much attention as when you are solely employed to do that assessment at that time

ive worked with peole who've applied for hundreds of jobs without success

i can imagine its very disheartening... but someone did got those jobs no?

you really are full of shit and not very clever

yawn

 

[ViolentPanda]

a few are sure, but id wager that many if not most of the c3000000 (or approx 9% of working age adults) that are on IB could do at least some part time work. plenty of evidence to show that a meaningful activity improves health and social function.

Circa three million?
Are you incapable of looking up current stats, or wouldn't that serve your purpose?
Figures for 2008 show 2.3 million claimants (that's just over 75% of your supposed figure, by the way), and around 1.9 million recipients of Incapacity Benefit.
By the way, why are you equating "meaningful activity" and work? Are you possessed by the spirit of Calvin or something?

also, most ill health is fairly shortlived, so the claimants would be on the sick not IB

Bullshit.
Even Incapacity Benefit was divided into tiers, to account for "short-term sick and/or disabled" and "long-term sick and/or disabled.
You also appear to have missed the sad fact that a significant minority (around 42% according to DWP figures in 2006) of IB claimants have health issues that are multi-factorial. I, for example, have mobility impairment due to 1) traumatic loss of bone mass in my r. tibia and fibula, 2) osteo-arthritis in hips, knees and lumbar spine caused by effects of point one (i.e. altered gait commonly known as "gimp limp" and 3) moderately severe balance problems caused by hearing impairment, long-term prescription use of certain analgesics and anti-inflammatories and pressure damage to middle ear.
And that's just one of my health issues, and doesn't get into items such as my cognitive impairment due to organic brain damage, or any of the health issues brought on by my relative immobility.
For someone who claims to be a nurse, you don't appear to be particularly cognisant of medical reality.

the first 2 are illegal so thus not really classifiable as employment, they certainly are not subject to PAYE,

Actually, as a prostitute can be charged with tax offences if they don't pay tax on their income, I'd say that HMRC do look upon it as a form of "employment".

the 3rd pays rather quite well so i understand. the argument you present is a tad extreme in its extension of logic, there are plenty of other jobs out there.. maybe not that attractive, but id rather shovel shit (to be equally as extreme) than to be unemployed for in excess of 6 months (qualifying period for IB)

So you say.

the reason they pay doctors so much (and it will be them assessing work capabilities) is because they are skilled in making such assessments

You are taking the piss, aren't you?
If that were the case why do so many "medical assessment" results get reviewed, and why do almost two thirds of those reviews (a consistent percentage even after assessment procedures were reviewed) into assessments result in the claimant receiving IB?

oh and me, i also do medical reports for IB, i suspect i will continue to do so for ESA. if i have good clinical reason to support someone claim, i cite that reason. if i do not have that clinical evidence, i dont

Let us hope you're more honourable than many of the "couldn't even make it as a locum" scum that fetch up doing IB medicals or acting as EMPs for DLA assessments.

oh, the evil "them"? the labour market as you call it, isn't there to "care" per se, its there to pay people money in return for their labour. why is it so many people on here struggle with that concept?

if people dont pull their weight, they get dismissed, simple as. no one owes you or anyone else anything. the welfare state is their to help people in temporary need, not permanent "cant be botheredness". those that genuinely cannot work or indeed ar dying, will continue to get state benefits, and rightly so.

You're quick to support the concept of the state, but you don't appear to actually understand it too well.

those that can get up off their fat lazy arses, should do so and pay for their own keep



no not really, i dont see your point. but i do know that every day all of us move closer to death, thats life im afriad. even more of a bitch is that i am paying into a pension that the goal posts keep moving on, already i have 12 years added to my working life before pensionable age, im 40 in a few months

Boohoo.
No, really, my heart is bleeding for you (well actually it's my haemorrhoids).
So what this boils down to isn't that you have any real political convictions, but that you feel hard done by and don't see why everyone else shouldn't suffer.

as for being sick and incapable, been there, off work for 4 months with a mental health issue. i was certifed sick by gp, paid sick pay by my employer (at this point i had given 17 years service so had earnt that benefit of my employment) did everything i could (which for a while was hard.. even getting to the docs for my ssri and to occupational health for theraping) to get back to health....

So, four months claiming sick-pay gives you the inside line, does it?
Not even close!

see thats your job when you are unemployed.. to find work.... anyone that puts in a full working week to finding employment is likely to find employment (untill all of those off work do the same, then i'll understand people being out of work (i do understand that those people post 50 finding work becomes much more difficult, but it can still be done))

Even if we remove all those immigrants that you seem stewed up about from the equation, which would be around a million all told if we go by MigrationWatch's figures, creating a million jobs, and then add that to the total number of jobs available (currently around the 750,000 mark inclusive of part-time from 16 hours upward) then we still only have 1.75 million jobs to go round 2.5 million unemplloyed people.
See the problem?

if you are ill, your job is to do everything within your power to get well. far too much comfort in our culture to remain in the sick role.

The sick role? No-one has given credibility to Parsons's mid 20th-century voodoo since the 1970s. It's crude, reductionist and inaccurate. Which is probably why so many right-wingers still deploy the concept.

as for the burden on the NHS of fat people, smokers drug users and those simply dying throw being alive.. or come to that those being born! thats part of our welfare state system that is there for all without payment or prequalifying conditions... a great social institution, even with its failings.. hence my 20 years service within it

Are you sure your reasons aren't more quotidian and, dare I say it, self-motivated? After all, you do have your pension to think about, don't you?

 

[ericjarvis]

if people are medically supported in not being able to work, they are not hassled. if the person does not have medical evidence to support their stance they cant work, well then it speaks for itself

This is bollocks. It's how it's supposed to work, but it isn't what happens in practise. I was declared fit to work last year simply because the DWP changed the medical diagnosis on my paperwork, leading to a medical in which the doctor only looked at symptoms of a condition that isn't one of the reasons I'm unfit to work. It took seven months to get the decision overruled by a tribunal. Once that was done it took a further six weeks to get my case out of what the Tribunal's Service calls the "win bin". In which routinely DWP offices "accidentally" lose the paperwork for decisions that have been overturned by a tribunal.

There's neighbour of mine who has severe COPD to the extent that he can rarely walk, who was declared fit to work at the same time. It took him nearly nine months to get the decision reversed.

The simple fact is the DWP work on targets and checklists, and largely pay absolutely no attention to things like medical evidence. That's why the people who actually make the final decisions on claims are kept well away from the claimants. So they don't get to see how ludicrous the process is.

 

[In Bloom]

So it’s written on the sacred pillar at the centre of the cosmos. Does this mean we get to take turns on the brood mares to make babies as well as rearing ‘em? It’s obviously just another lefty anorak rouse to lose their virginity. Or perhaps just to hide from blame.

How does that not annoy you?

 

[jonajuna]

You don't seem to have much understanding of the issues involved in long term unemployment and mental health. Funny stance for a drug worker.

drugs worker, mental health nurse, mental health problem "sufferer"

yes i know that long term unemployment is extremely detrimental to mental health, however the solution to that isnt to be signed off and remian out of enployment for ever

its the opposite in fact.. hence the national programme of supported employment

 

[Carousel]

legal or 'not illegal'? would paying tax on it make the state be liable to "living off immoral earnings"

Legal. Running a brothel or pimping is illegal. Unless it's employs the porn loophole.

 

[Blagsta]

drugs worker, mental health nurse, mental health problem "sufferer"

yes i know that long term unemployment is extremely detrimental to mental health, however the solution to that isnt to be signed off and remian out of enployment for ever

its the opposite in fact.. hence the national programme of supported employment

You must also know that employment isn't a magical solution and that telling people to "get a job" is counter-productive.

You seem to suffer from the "I sorted myself out, why can't you" syndrome that some ex-service users go through.

 

[Carousel]

So it’s written on the sacred pillar at the centre of the cosmos. Does this mean we get to take turns on the brood mares to make babies as well as rearing ‘em? It’s obviously just another lefty anorak rouse to lose their virginity. Or perhaps just to hide from blame.

How does that not annoy you?

We feel how we want to feel.

 

[Carousel]

You must also know that employment isn't a magical solution and that telling people to "get a job" is counter-productive.

Counter-productive to what? Rather presumes you've values in common, when it seems likely you haven't.

 

[jonajuna]

snipped

i truly feel for the harm you have come to serving this country. im not being sarcastic, i mean that.

but if i may use your self disclosed problems as an example.

you have levels of disability and related health problems that are fairly severe. yet even with those problems you are able to use ICT, formulate arguments (whether i agree with them or not doesnt come into it), and sit at a computer for some time.

there are numerous fields of employemnt that someone with your comaprable disabilities could do utilising those skills

why can people not see the point i am making

there are very few people that can not undertake any form of employment at all

 

[jonajuna]

Legal. Running a brothel or pimping is illegal. Unless it's employs the porn loophole.

is there a statute on that? im not aware of selling sex to be a legal pasttime... i know (barring some circumstances) it isnt illegal

but like with some recreational chemicals, not being illegal is not the same as being legal

this is a question, not a statement as i dont know

 

[Carousel]

why can people not see the point i am making

Because values and beliefs are often bound close to their sense of self, especially so for people who enjoy internet forums. That’s why the discussions are so polar and so animated.

 

[Blagsta]

why can people not see the point i am making

there are very few people that can not undertake any form of employment at all

The point being that jobs aren't organised in ways that make allowances for people's health issues. They're organised around the needs of making a profit. The two things are often in opposition to each other.

 

[jonajuna]

You must also know that employment isn't a magical solution and that telling people to "get a job" is counter-productive.

You seem to suffer from the "I sorted myself out, why can't you" syndrome that some ex-service users go through.

"enabling people" to gain meaningful employment has some magical effects for many.

self relieance, self worth, control over own destiny, pride, mental and physicla feelings of well being, improved social circle. feelings of 'normaility'

as a drugs worker im surprised you havent heard any clients ever list "get a job" as one of thier primary goals

 

[Carousel]

not being illegal is not the same as being legal

You're arguing for the sake of it. Get a job.

 

[Blagsta]

"enabling people" to gain meaningful employment has some magical effects for many.

self relieance, self worth, control over own destiny, pride, mental and physicla feelings of well being, improved social circle. feelings of 'normaility'

as a drugs worker im surprised you havent heard any clients ever list "get a job" as one of thier primary goals

Clients do often list "get a job" as a primary goal. Clients often have very unrealistic expectation as to what a job will do for them and how soon they will be ready. I have seen clients get jobs before they are ready and lose them very quickly, I have seen other clients go back to work too soon and relapse because of stress. Work is not a magic bullet.

 

[jonajuna]

Because values and beliefs are often bound close to their sense of self, especially so for people who enjoy internet forums. That’s why the discussions are so polar and so animated.

odd though as i get the sense that at least some of the people here are of similar or even greater years than me

i know damn well that my view of the world and my politics have changed as i have got older

i couldnt attch my polictics to my self, the 2 things are massively dynamic in their own right, developing and changing at different rates and influenced by different experiences

 

[jonajuna]

You're arguing for the sake of it. Get a job.

got one, im on my 30 minutes unpaid lunch break

 

[Blagsta]

Just to add - having a focus and interests is definitely important for mental health and recovery from drug problems. This is not often the same as work though.

 

[Carousel]

feelings of 'normaility'

I've had those. They were fucking grim.

 

[jonajuna]

Clients do often list "get a job" as a primary goal. Clients often have very unrealistic expectation as to what a job will do for them and how soon they will be ready. I have seen clients get jobs before they are ready and lose them very quickly, I have seen other clients go back to work too soon and relapse because of stress. Work is not a magic bullet.

agree but we all need hopes and aspirations

the thought of a lifetime sat on my ass sounds like hell.. might as well take opiates and sleep my life away if thats all i have to look forward to