War propaganda, 'Realists' and neocons, and the denigration of the war sceptics

[RD2003]

No independent viewpoints allowed. From the Guardian just now:



The Irish president, Michael D Higgins, has been urged to state unequivocal support for the Ukrainian cause and oppose Russian aggression after his wife penned a controversial letter.

It comes after Sabina Higgins wrote to the Irish Times last week to criticise one of the newspaper’s editorials on the conflict.

In the letter, she said the fighting would go on until the world “persuades President Vladimir Putin of Russia and President Volodymyr Zelenskiy of Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire and negotiations”.

Critics have suggested she was drawing an equivalence between the actions of Ukraine and Russia.

Fine Gael senator John McGahon called on Mr Higgins to clarify whether he was aware of the letter before it was published or had any role in drafting it.

“If you were to read that letter you’d think that this is a dispute between two countries over a contested piece of land,” he said. “And I think the comments that she has made is a slap in the face to the 47,000 Ukrainian refugees who have come to this island of Ireland to seek safety and seek sanctuary.”

 

[LDC]

You're just spouting shit, it's not that it was 'not allowed' as it was 'independent' though is it? It was in the Irish Times ffs. (Although how you can call the wife of the Irish president independent I'm not sure, unless what you mean is she's a rare person thinking along the same lines as you?) It's that it was a crass, politically inaccurate and biased call for negotiations without acknowledging the root of the current war and Russia's aggression.

No surprise it was supported by the fucking arseholes Daly and Wallace, both Putin apologists, and fruitcakes to boot.

 

[RD2003]

You're just spouting shit, it's not that it was 'not allowed' as it was 'independent' though is it? It was in the Irish Times ffs. (Although how you can call the wife of the Irish president independent I'm not sure, unless what you mean is she's a rare person thinking along the same lines as you?) It's that it was a crass, politically inaccurate and biased call for negotiations without acknowledging the root of the current war and Russia's aggression.

No surprise it was supported by the fucking arseholes Daly and Wallace, both Putin apologists, and fruitcakes to boot.

I don't know if she's thinking along the same lines as me, as I haven't seen the letter. But if she didn't 'acknowledge the root of the current war and Russian aggression,' then that clearly makes her pov different than mine.

However, since when has it been a requirement to acknowledge anything before expressing a viewpoint?

And who decides what is politically accurate or biased?

I have no idea who Daly and Wallace are.

 

[LDC]

However, since when has it been a requirement to acknowledge anything before expressing a viewpoint?

And who decides what is politically accurate or biased?

I have no idea who Daly and Wallace are.

It's not a 'requirement', but given what's going on and she's the Irish president's wife it's at best foolish and insensitive, at worst it was because she's a bit of an apologist for the Russian State's invasion and war crimes etc.

I'm just going to roll my eyes at the second question.

Daly and Wallace are Irish MEPs in the mould of Galloway et al. Putin apologists, Covid deniers, Assad regime sympathisers, conspiracy fools, etc. The worst of the red/brown mess that I think you said doesn't exist outside of the internet?

 

[RD2003]

It's not a 'requirement', but given what's going on and she's the Irish president's wife it's at best foolish and insensitive, at worst it was because she's a bit of an apologist for the Russian State's invasion and war crimes etc.

I'm just going to roll my eyes at the second question.

Daly and Wallace are Irish MEPs in the mould of Galloway et al. Putin apologists, Covid deniers, Assad regime sympathisers, conspiracy fools, etc. The worst of the red/brown mess that I think you said doesn't exist outside of the internet?

Is it a requirement, then, for the wife of a president to give up all right to independent thought? She's another I know little about, just as with D and W. Don't suppose anybody does apart from those who have a special interest in the politics of the Rep. of Ireland. But her motives are inevitably a matter for speculation only. The only important point is that anybody should be free to offer an opinion without being pressured by those who demand conformity with the prevailing line. I suspect that away from Europe there will be plenty (possibly even a majority) who agree with her to one degree or another, as well as a substantial minority with in it.

Why roll you eyes at the question of who decides what is politically accurate or biased? There is no definitive accuracy in politics, only a multiplicity of viewpoints on an infinite number of topics, and everybody is biased. Nobody has access to The Truth.

I think what I actually said somewhere was that the red-browns barely exist outside the left bubble.

 

[LDC]

Is it a requirement, then, for the wife of a president to give up all right to independent thought? She's another I know little about, just as with D and W. Don't suppose anybody does apart from those who have a special interest in the politics of the Rep. of Ireland. But her motives are inevitably a matter for speculation only. The only important point is that anybody should be free to offer an opinion without being pressured by those who demand conformity with the prevailing line. I suspect that away from Europe there will be plenty (possibly even a majority) who agree with her to one degree or another, as well as a substantial minority with in it.

Why roll you eyes at the question of who decides what is politically accurate or biased? There is no definitive accuracy in politics, only a multiplicity of viewpoints on an infinite number of topics, and everybody is biased. Nobody has access to The Truth.

I think what I actually said somewhere was that the red-browns barely exist outside the left bubble.

Because typing out a massive discussion on the meaning of bias and political accuracy is much more than I can be arsed to do this afternoon.

I could throw this back at you re: independent on the same lines as well. Is she independent, and what does that mean and who decides what is and isn't? And is being independent of any value anyway if your politics are terrible. Yes, we can speculate on her motives, but like I said, short of her having some wild out there reasons we can't predict surely there's some range of why she wrote what she did? Yes, people can offer opinions, there's no shortage of them on this topic. But that obviously doesn't mean they're all valid or worth listening to, as you know.

I mean having two MEPs is a bit more than 'barely existing' I'd have said.

 

[strung out]

No independent viewpoints allowed. From the Guardian just now:



The Irish president, Michael D Higgins, has been urged to state unequivocal support for the Ukrainian cause and oppose Russian aggression after his wife penned a controversial letter.

It comes after Sabina Higgins wrote to the Irish Times last week to criticise one of the newspaper’s editorials on the conflict.

In the letter, she said the fighting would go on until the world “persuades President Vladimir Putin of Russia and President Volodymyr Zelenskiy of Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire and negotiations”.

Critics have suggested she was drawing an equivalence between the actions of Ukraine and Russia.

Fine Gael senator John McGahon called on Mr Higgins to clarify whether he was aware of the letter before it was published or had any role in drafting it.

“If you were to read that letter you’d think that this is a dispute between two countries over a contested piece of land,” he said. “And I think the comments that she has made is a slap in the face to the 47,000 Ukrainian refugees who have come to this island of Ireland to seek safety and seek sanctuary.”

Of course she's allowed another viewpoint. Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to call her out for the obvious clumsy/nasty shite she wrote?

 

[krtek a houby]

Interesting.


Now it's something because Irish have something to say.

 

[JimW]

Presumably the letter got published more for who she is than the content too.

 

[krtek a houby]

Presumably the letter got published more for who she is than the content too.

Presumably the letter got published more for who she is than the content too.

Again, tis interesting that because an Irish person has something to say is this escalates

 

[LDC]

Again, tis interesting that because an Irish person has something to say is this escalates

Are you pissed? Because you're not making any sense at all.

 

[RD2003]

Because typing out a massive discussion on the meaning of bias and political accuracy is much more than I can be arsed to do this afternoon.

I could throw this back at you re: independent on the same lines as well. Is she independent, and what does that mean and who decides what is and isn't? And is being independent of any value anyway if your politics are terrible. Yes, we can speculate on her motives, but like I said, short of her having some wild out there reasons we can't predict surely there's some range of why she wrote what she did? Yes, people can offer opinions, there's no shortage of them on this topic. But that obviously doesn't mean they're all valid or worth listening to, as you know.

I mean having two MEPs is a bit more than 'barely existing' I'd have said.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, or else you're choosing to ignore what I mean. Which was that she at least offered a viewpoint independent of the current, heavily engineered consensus, where alternative voices get shouted down, and by those who are invariabaly self-righteous to the point of comedy.

Your (wider) politics are 'terrible' to many more people than those who agree, as you will know. As are mine no doubt. So where is the 'value' there?

Are the two MEPs official 'red-browns?' Have the red-browns got an office where you can send off for the red-brown manifesto?

 

[RD2003]

Of course she's allowed another viewpoint. Are you saying people shouldn't be allowed to call her out for the obvious clumsy/nasty shite she wrote?

What, more clumsy and nasty than those who argue for endless escalation and the accompanying slaughter from 2000 miles away?

 

[krtek a houby]

Are you pissed? Because you're not making any sense at all.

Yeah, Irish must be pissed all the time

 

[krtek a houby]

What, more clumsy and nasty than those who argue for endless escalation and the accompanying slaughter from 2000 miles away?

Like you arguing in favour of Putin

 

[RD2003]

Like you arguing in favour of Putin

Where?

 

[krtek a houby]

Where?

Every one of your sad threads

 

[RD2003]

Every one of your sad threads

Quotes where I 'argue for Putin'?

 

[krtek a houby]

Quotes where I 'argue for Putin'?

Read your own threads

 

[RD2003]

Read your own threads

Wasting the time of both of us again, I see.

 

[krtek a houby]

Wasting the time of both of us again, I see.

Where are those who argue for endless escalation and the accompanying slaughter from 2000 miles away?

Come on.names.

 

[RD2003]

Where are those who argue for endless escalation and the accompanying slaughter from 2000 miles away?

Come on.names.

You won't quote me on my alleged support for Putin but want me to put in the effort of pulling out names?

There is no need to name anybody when a cursory read through reveals that a majority of the Ukraine threads are dominated by those taking the line of their own government and ruling class in wanting a (futile) fight to the finish in Ukraine. I presume that nearly all of these are a very long way from the battle zone.

 

[strung out]

Funny how the more weapons that have been sent to Ukraine, the less willing Putin has been to escalate things.

 

[Humberto]

'Futile'?

 

[krtek a houby]

You won't quote me on my alleged support for Putin but want me to put in the effort of pulling out names?

There is no need to name anybody when a cursory read through reveals that a majority of the Ukraine threads are dominated by those taking the line of their own government and ruling class in wanting a (futile) fight to the finish in Ukraine. I presume that nearly all of these are a very long way from the battle zone.

How near are you

 

[RD2003]

Funny how the more weapons that have been sent to Ukraine, the less willing Putin has been to escalate things.

Seems like things have escalated nicely in the east over the months. Or have I been imagining it?

 

[strung out]

Seems like things have escalated nicely in the east. Or have I been imagining it?

Well the HIMARS arrived, and suddenly the number of artillery attacks from Russia slowed down and deaths of Ukrainians dropped accordingly. Deescalation at its finest.

 

[RD2003]

Well the HIMARS arrived, and suddenly the number of artillery attacks from Russia slowed down and deaths of Ukrainians dropped accordingly. Deescalation at its finest.

Seems like there's been more than a few Russian artillery attacks over the weekend just ending. Or have I imagined these as well?

The impetus allegedly moving from one side to the other is not descalation.

 

[strung out]

Seems like there's been more than a few Russian artillery attacks over the weekend just ending. Or have I imagined these as well?

The impetus allegedly moving from one side to the other is not descalation.

There have been far fewer artillery attacks from Russia since the long range artillery arrived. Whether you regard that as deescalation or not, the result is fewer deaths of innocent civilians and soldiers from the invaded nation.

 

[RD2003]

There have been far fewer artillery attacks from Russia since the long range artillery arrived. Weather you regards that as deescalation or not, the result is fewer deaths of innocent civilians and soldiers from the invaded nation.

Still not anything that could be descibed as deescalation.

The strategy appears to be to prepare the way for a Ukrainian counter-offensive. Understandable from the Ukrainian standpoint, but many more on both sides are bound to die if and when it happens.

Unlike some, I regret the death of civilians and soldiers on both sides.