"Victims of grooming gangs want action"...headline today on the BBC

[Smokeandsteam]

This is what right-wing grifters like Jenrick and Farage deliberately ignore but along with misogyny it's a huge issue. Vulnerable working class girls have long been seen as "asking for it", more resilient (words like tough and rough), unclean, less deserving. Those twats don't give one shite about those girls and it's them who matter.

Precisely.

For those looking for the common denominator here it’s class.

Reading the testimony of some of the survivors it’s the same story over and again: foul abuse by the worst scum of the world, followed by bored indifference or dismissal by the state authorities. Then you read some of the thing said to these girls… ‘they were drunk, they were consenting, they were asking for it, they were selling sex’…

You sense that for some the aftermath - the fight for justice - almost seems as scarring and crushing as the heinous events.

In fact their real crime was to be a young girl, poor and vulnerable…. it turns my stomach and breaks my heart.

 

[Sweet FA]

For those looking for the common denominator here it’s

gender.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

gender.

I did think about adding that. But didn’t because there is a litany of abuse of young boys too. Also, overwhelmingly poor and vulnerable.

But, yes, gender too….

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I did think about adding that. But didn’t because there is a litany of abuse of young boys too. Also, overwhelmingly poor and vulnerable.

But, yes, gender too….

Think about the gender of the abusers rather than the victims. The abusers are overwhelmingly male; it is about a male sense of entitlement over women and children and less 'male' men. Of course class is it at play as well, but just at the minute I'm too tired, angr, and tipsy to go into it any further.

Cheers- Louis MacNeice (as a survivor of familial abuse)

 

[Sweet FA]

I did think about adding that. But didn’t because there is a litany of abuse of young boys too. Also, overwhelmingly poor and vulnerable.

But, yes, gender too….

Are we talking about Rotherham, Bradford, Manchester, Huddersfield and Telford or more broadly?

Rape and sexual abuse is done to girls and women by men no matter where you were born or who to. Class shows the different ways men manipulate situations to achieve their aims. As does religion, community role, profession etc etc etc. In many of the cases in the towns and cities above, children were groomed with drugs and alcohol; in other cases, it's the promise of faster swim times or personal training. The common factor in the abuse is not class.

 

[Dystopiary]

Are we talking about Rotherham, Bradford, Manchester, Huddersfield and Telford or more broadly?

Rape and sexual abuse is done to girls and women by men no matter where you were born or who to. Class shows the different ways men manipulate situations to achieve their aims. As does religion, community role, profession etc etc etc. In many of the cases in the towns and cities above, children were groomed with drugs and alcohol; in other cases, it's the promise of faster swim times or personal training. The common factor in the abuse is not class.

The girls not being taken seriously was to do with misogyny and class.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Are we talking about Rotherham, Bradford, Manchester, Huddersfield and Telford or more broadly?

Rape and sexual abuse is done to girls and women by men no matter where you were born or who to. Class shows the different ways men manipulate situations to achieve their aims. As does religion, community role, profession etc etc etc. In many of the cases in the towns and cities above, children were groomed with drugs and alcohol; in other cases, it's the promise of faster swim times or personal training. The common factor in the abuse is not class.

It's overwhelmingly gender; it's overwhelmingly men abusing women and girls and boys.

Society is gendered in many massively pro male ways. Many men think they are and should be in control, be always satisfied, be happy and celebrated. It's not a healthy way for men or society to carry on.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Sweet FA]

The girls not being taken seriously was to do with misogyny and class.

Yes.

 

[burtabraham]

The common factor amongst 99% of sexual abuse is clearly men. That said, in the case of these rape gangs, they racially abused their targets at the same time as sexually abusing them, so their crimes have to be understood as motivated by a hate that operates on multiple levels. I don't know how many of these cases were actually treated as hate crimes, but they should have been.

 

[burtabraham]

Also, why on earth are we still using 'beyond reasonable doubt' as the criteria to convict a person? The balance of probabilities should be the watermark. I mean, if enough evidence exists to conclude that a person more likely raped a child than didnt, that's got to be a whole lot of bloody evidence by any sensible standard.

 

[Aladdin]

Edited..

 

[8ball]

Also, why on earth are we still using 'beyond reasonable doubt' as the criteria to convict a person? The balance of probabilities should be the watermark. I mean, if enough evidence exists to conclude that a person more likely raped a child than didnt, that's got to be a whole lot of bloody evidence by any sensible standard.

Depends how many innocent people you want to lock up.

1,000 people locked up with a 51% confidence of them having done it - what does that do for the perceived legitimacy of your legal system?

 

[8ball]

The common factor amongst 99% of sexual abuse is clearly men.

You could almost wipe out violent and sexual crime by locking up all men between the ages of 17 and 45.

Edit: obv I mean the violent and sexual crime happening outside prisons…

 

[burtabraham]

Depends how many innocent people you want to lock up.

1,000 people locked up with a 51% confidence of them having done it - what does that do for the perceived legitimacy of your legal system?

I understand the sentiment, and there is that famous saying that it is preferable that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be locked up. But honestly that is madness. I would rather the the 10 get their just deserts. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent, as they say, and when 10 monsters go free that is a psychological life-sentence for the people they harmed.

 

[Ax^]

Are we talking about Rotherham, Bradford, Manchester, Huddersfield and Telford or more broadly?

Rape and sexual abuse is done to girls and women by men no matter where you were born or who to. Class shows the different ways men manipulate situations to achieve their aims. As does religion, community role, profession etc etc etc. In many of the cases in the towns and cities above, children were groomed with drugs and alcohol; in other cases, it's the promise of faster swim times or personal training. The common factor in the abuse is not class.

also worth remember in all of this and reform member/ tommy Robinson fanbois might not like it but guess which ethnicity is most like to be a sex offender

source is a freedom of information request from the justice department with figures to 2020 btw**

 

[burtabraham]

Also, what do you think the perceived legitimacy of our legal system is when monsters like this are getting released after having served only half their sentence.

 

[8ball]

Also, what do you think the perceived legitimacy of our legal system is when monsters like this are getting released after having served only half their sentence.

What does this have to do with the level of confidence required to send someone down in the first place?

 

[8ball]

Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent, as they say…

And yet you argue in favour of cruelty to the innocent.

 

[burtabraham]

also worth remember in all of this and reform member/ tommy Robinson fanbois might not like it but guess which ethnicity is most like to be a sex offender

source is a freedom of information request from the justice department with figures to 2020 btw**

The topic at hand is very specifically gang-based sexual offensives aimed at children though, not sexual offenses in general. Of course most sex crimes are commited by white people because most of the country is white. But the reason the 'grooming' gangs issue is important is because justice has deliberately been stifled or delayed, and this happened in part due to an unwillingness to confront the accused because of the racial component.

 

[Ax^]

what more justic would you accept from last few post anyone with sniff of suggestion of being involved thrown in a a dark pit forever?

also torygraph links might as well post from the fail

 

[Orang Utan]

The topic at hand is very specifically gang-based sexual offensives aimed at children though, not sexual offenses in general. Of course most sex crimes are commited by white people because most of the country is white. But the reason the 'grooming' gangs issue is important is because justice has deliberately been stifled or delayed, and this happened in part due to an unwillingness to confront the accused because of the racial component.

RTFT

 

[burtabraham]

What does this have to do with the level of confidence required to send someone down in the first place?

I'm saying the system as it stands has no legitimacy because it is soft. Releasing criminals early is just one more example of that softness alongside the pathetic conviction rates, which are not helped by the standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Ax^]

I'm saying the system as it stands has no legitimacy because it is soft. Releasing criminals early is just one more example of that softness alongside the pathetic conviction rates, which are not helped by the standard of beyond reasonable doubt.

are you dense ? or trolling

 

[burtabraham]

And yet you argue in favour of cruelty to the innocent.

There are tens of thousands of victims of these gangs. The fact that so few convictions have been made (and as far as I know, zero convictions of the police, social workers, and politicians who allowed it) means that there are tens of thousands of people who in effect have been given life sentences. All for what? Some abstract ideal?

 

[8ball]

are you dense ? or trolling

Disagreement doesn’t automatically mean trolling, but I’m grateful to live in a country where burtabraham has not designed the criminal justice system- faulty as it may be.

 

[burtabraham]

what more justic would you accept from last few post anyone with sniff of suggestion of being involved thrown in a a dark pit forever?

also torygraph links might as well post from the fail

I've no idea what you just said.

 

[burtabraham]

Disagreement doesn’t automatically mean trolling, but I’m grateful to live in a country where burtabraham has not designed the criminal justice system- faulty as it may be.

Then convince me of why 'beyond resonable doubt' is a better criteria than 'balance of probabilities'.

 

[Ax^]

I've no idea what you just said.

look you answered the question already so don't worry

we should remove the stand point in law that you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt..


you are a reactionary gob shite who happily live in dystopian police state

you sir are a fucking plank

 

[Orang Utan]

There are tens of thousands of victims of these gangs. The fact that so few convictions have been made (and as far as I know, zero convictions of the police, social workers, and politicians who allowed it) means that there are tens of thousands of people who in effect have been given life sentences. All for what? Some abstract ideal?

Wtf are you on about?

 

[burtabraham]

look you answered the question already so don't worry

we should remove the stand point in law that you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt..


you are a reactionary gob shite who happily live in dystopian police state

you sir are a fucking plank

Namecalling just makes it look like you have no arguments to back up your opinion. But I'll put your childish comments aside for now. Just tell me why the balance of probabilities is such a bad standard. I don't know about you, but I've never been in a situation where it was more likely I raped someone than didn't. So why is that an unjust standard?