Vegetarians! Why aren't you vegan?

[mrfusion]

Buying a cow and a bull and recreating the whole thing yourself wouldn't be any better, even though there's no industry involved. It's suffering and exploitation which are at the heart of the vegan argument, not industry or capitalist profit (although these are often co-opted into supplementary beliefs)

Ok, but how would there be suffering and exploitation involved (do you believe that owning household pets is immoral, because if so that might be the distinction)? This makes no difference to me, I'm just genuinely interested in this. And as for the fact that not every family can afford a cow (though household livestock ownership was pretty high in the middle ages, for example), I still think that puts milk and cheese into a seperate category from meat - the problem is of practicality not morality. If a household had a cow, most vegetarians would believe it is wrong to kill and eat it.

 

[madzone]

Ok, but how would there be suffering and exploitation involved (do you believe that owning household pets is immoral, because if so that might be the distinction)? This makes no difference to me, I'm just genuinely interested in this. And as for the fact that not every family can afford a cow (though household livestock ownership was pretty high in the middle ages, for example), I still think that puts milk and cheese into a seperate category from meat - the problem is of practicality not morality. If a household had a cow, most vegetarians would believe it is wrong to kill and eat it.

It's not that they couldn't afford it, where would they put it?
Afaia vegans do believe it's wrong to keep pets don't they?

 

[Geri]

Most vegan/animal rights types I've known are against the pet trade in principle, but tend to have loads of pets themselves that are rescue animals.

 

[subversplat]

You don't have to buy a bull

And what makes you think the cow would suffer?

How else are you going to keep your cow inseminated and lactating? You could buy insemination fluid, but that puts you right back in the grasp of the fauna industry.

Cows suffer from seperation anxiety when their calves are taken from them.

 

[subversplat]

It's not that they couldn't afford it, where would they put it?
Afaia vegans do believe it's wrong to keep pets don't they?

It's not wrong to keep pets if you understand and can adapt to their species needs*. Keeping a pet with the intent to kill it one day is a big no-no though

*eta: And as long as they are domesticated anyway and would more than likely suffer even worse if they were left to fend for themselves

 

[madzone]

How else are you going to keep your cow inseminated and lactating? You could buy insemination fluid, but that puts you right back in the grasp of the fauna industry.

Cows suffer from seperation anxiety when their calves are taken from them.

I think you're assuming that intensive production methods are the only way. If we're talking about 'house' cows then the methods are entirely different. There doesn't need to be any separation or AI.

 

[scifisam]

I think you're assuming that intensive production methods are the only way. If we're talking about 'house' cows then the methods are entirely different. There doesn't need to be any separation or AI.

Can you (theoretically) just keep on milking the cow without having to make it pregnant again? I mean, I'm fairly sure that, after my daughter no longer needed breastfeeding, I could have carried on producing milk for years if I'd just pumped away. I could also have produced more than was necessary for her needs while she was still feeding, and actually did so for a few days while I was in hospital - squeezed some milk out for the breastmilk bank. If humans can do that, surely cows can too?

 

[madzone]

Can you (theoretically) just keep on milking the cow without having to make it pregnant again? I mean, I'm fairly sure that, after my daughter no longer needed breastfeeding, I could have carried on producing milk for years if I'd just pumped away. I could also have produced more than was necessary for her needs while she was still feeding, and actually did so for a few days while I was in hospital - squeezed some milk out for the breastmilk bank. If humans can do that, surely cows can too?

I'm not certain about cows and I think they'd dry up eventually but I don't really know how long that would take. Left to their own devices they produce one calf a year, that's what they're 'designed' to do so I don't know how long they'd produce after a calf's natural weaning time. However, our goats carry on producing milk for up to three years after they were last pregnant. Mammals are all pretty similarly designed aren't they? The whole supply and demand mechanism is pretty strong I would've thought.

 

[subversplat]

I think you're assuming that intensive production methods are the only way. If we're talking about 'house' cows then the methods are entirely different. There doesn't need to be any separation or AI.

I suppose I am, it's all I've really read about. As you say up there though, goats are much better for that sort of thing. Even my sensibilities aren't offended by someone maybe rescuing a couple of goats

 

[madzone]

I suppose I am, it's all I've really read about. As you say up there though, goats are much better for that sort of thing. Even my sensibilities aren't offended by someone maybe rescuing a couple of goats

I didn't rescue them, I bred them solely for teh purposes of stealing their milk

Yeah, they're much better for ethical milk production than cows. The milk is actually better for you as well.

 

[fredfelt]

I also buy clothes that were probably made by kids in the third world, run a car and waste electricity talking shit on t'internet - there comes a point were you come to an accomodation between your qualms and letting it take over your whole life. it's only for yourself anyway - if you really think you're going to stop the meat and dairy industries you'll have a long wait

For me it's about trying be responsible for my actions and acting in accordance with my principles. And as I am relatively well off (ie I don't have to worry where my next meal is coming from) I have the luxury of being able follow my principles.

It does not take over my whole life as I accept the hypocrisies - eg there is no way I'd be able to get vegan shoes to fit and it would be ridiculous to not have shoes).

It's not my place or ambition to direct how others live, my aim is to comfortable with my lifestyle. Wanting to stop the meat and dairy industry, as well as being unachievable would mean that I'm forcing my way of life on to others. This is not what it is about for me.

But I do agree that "there comes a point were you come to an accomodation between your qualms and letting it take over your whole life.". This is why I decide not to be vegan - but it's also why dairy is an increasingly small part of my diet.

 

[i_got_poison]

if it wasn't for butter in my rice, a greggs or similar. ice cream for my sweet tooth i would be vegan.
i'm not independently wealthy, so i can't be too picky about where i eat and to some degree what i eat.
although if circumstances permitted i would like be vegan as it's always been a long term goal.

 

[stuff_it]

Cause I luurve milk, and it's done me good (lots of accidents/pratfalls over the years and nary a broken bone).

Also when I was vegan for 6 months I got really fat - though that may have been due to the three course vegan dinners with full puddings etc that I was eating every night!

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I think that you set your own line with vegetarianism, really. For instance, most beer isn't veggie, as it's filtered through fish scales but, really, fuck not drinking beer.

I thought it was isinglass which was used as a filter, which is from swim bladders, not fish scales. I don't know this for sure, but I have been told it's also used to filter drinking water, so tap water is out for vegans too.

 

[ska invita]

the thing that gets me is cheese on frozen pizzas ( i take about half of it off usually), and tiny amounts of dairy in other mass produced food stuffs - just too much hassle - though with each day that goes by i move close to veganism. its a journey man!
ive come so far (grew up on burgers) - id rather society came a but closer to me now and did the last bit of the work.

im sticking with eggs though, even if it is a bit weird to eats something that came out of a chickens batty

 

[stuff_it]

I thought it was isinglass which was used as a filter, which is from swim bladders, not fish scales. I don't know this for sure, but I have been told it's also used to filter drinking water, so tap water is out for vegans too.

Special Brew is vegan

 

[Herbsman.]

I thought it was isinglass which was used as a filter, which is from swim bladders, not fish scales. I don't know this for sure, but I have been told it's also used to filter drinking water, so tap water is out for vegans too.

Where would water companies obtain enough fish swim bladders to filter the drinking water of an entire nation?

 

[subversplat]

Special Brew is vegan

Also Stella, Heineken, Budvar, Grolsh, the list goes on.

Cask ale is almost never vegetarian, but it's pretty rank so it doesn't matter

 

[pinkmonkey]

I'm not veggie or vegan but I pretty much cut dairy out of my diet a month ago, to see if my asthma would improve. I'm only mildly asthmatic and my peak flow has been almost normal in the past (when I used to run).
Anyway, my peak flow has improved all month and I am almost at normal again.
My main observation is: how much food has dairy in it? It is in blimmin' everything!

 

[Funky_monks]

I think you're assuming that intensive production methods are the only way. If we're talking about 'house' cows then the methods are entirely different. There doesn't need to be any separation or AI.

I think the notion of a true dual-purpose cow may be lost on some folk. Haven't most of the old dual purpose breeds been improved for meat now? - I know it has happened with the Welsh Black. Oddly enough, you can still enter Dexters in dairy classes at shows. My neighbour used to have a red poll as his house cow, so they must be about.

 

[Orang Utan]

i have come to the point of realisation that eating meat is a bit wrong. but i've only just discovered the joys of cooking and at the moment my desire for meat overwhelms any other consideration.

 

[madzone]

I think the notion of a true dual-purpose cow may be lost on some folk. Haven't most of the old dual purpose breeds been improved for meat now? - I know it has happened with the Welsh Black. Oddly enough, you can still enter Dexters in dairy classes at shows. My neighbour used to have a red poll as his house cow, so they must be about.

I'm not that keen on cows milk so have never looked into it. You can probably still get an old breed that hasn't been messed about with. For a price.

I looked into getting some Cornish Black weaners recently. The bloke wanted £70 each

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

They're not. Cows have to be pregnant to produce milk. If we want that milk, the calves have to be taken away from them. Go figure.

The truth of the matter is that you have to take the calves away from dairy cattle. Modern milk cows produce so much milk that they're fully capable of feeding a calf and producing extra for us, but we've bred them to be so stupid that they don't care for a calf properly.

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm not that keen on cows milk so have never looked into it. You can probably still get an old breed that hasn't been messed about with. For a price.

I looked into getting some Cornish Black weaners recently. The bloke wanted £70 each

is that cheap or expensive?

 

[madzone]

is that cheap or expensive?

Expensive.

 

[Orang Utan]

seems reasonable to me though i don't know the costs of raising it. just calculating how much meat you'd get off it

 

[fredfelt]

if it wasn't for butter in my rice, a greggs or similar. ice cream for my sweet tooth i would be vegan.
i'm not independently wealthy, so i can't be too picky about where i eat and to some degree what i eat.
although if circumstances permitted i would like be vegan as it's always been a long term goal.

Keep an eye on the ingredients of the ice cream you eat. Typically ice cream has eggs in it and typically these eggs are battery.

For instance Hagan Daz ice cream use battery eggs. If you read the label they claim to use 'only the finest ingredients'. I emailed them to clarify what this meant and it seems they do class battery eggs as a 'finest ingredient'.

Ben and Jerries and Waitwrose, amongst other brands use free range.

 

[madzone]

seems reasonable to me though i don't know the costs of raising it. just calculating how much meat you'd get off it

It's a baby pig. Not worth £70 unless it's gold plated.

 

[Orang Utan]

oh, i thought you were talking about cows

 

[madzone]

oh, i thought you were talking about cows

Fucking hell, 70 quid for a cow and I'd buy 4