US debt ceiling

[gosub]

The National Debt Under Every US President in the Last 100 Years – 24/7 Wall St.

The United States government is on the brink of defaulting on its debt. Since surpassing its $31.4 trillion borrowing cap in January 2023, the federal government has remained solvent through extraordinary measures enacted by the Treasury Department. The efficacy of these measures have a rapidly...

247wallst.com

Just Facts - National Debt

Comprehensive and meticulously documented facts about the national debt. Learn about various measures of the national debt, contributing factors, consequences, and more.

www.justfacts.com

Feels like a subject gaining worthyness of the popcorn and deckchair that is a thread

 

[gosub]

Not to be confused with US household debt

Average Consumer Debt Levels Increase in 2022 - Experian

Consumer debt balances increased in 2022, and at a faster rate than they did the year prior. Learn more about how debt levels changed overall.

www.experian.com

 

[gosub]

https://www.usdebtclock.org/#

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This is a game that the Republicans play to try to destroy the economy during Democratic administrations. It's been going on for years. I've heard it called "the reverse Santa Clause" theory. The idea is that you stave the economy during Democratic administrations by yelling about the deficit and trying to cut the budget. During Republican administrations, they spend, spend, spend. The debt ceiling is one way they've done this by refusing the raise the debt limit unless deep cuts are made to social programs, including Social Security, which isn't technically part of the federal budget (it occupies its own separate accounting sheet).

If I were the President, I'd put an end to this tactic by calling them on it. The Constitution puts budgeting and spending on the House, which is currently controlled by Republicans. They can raise the debt ceiling any time they want with a clean bill to do so. Instead, they're using it as a hostage to get cuts to social programs. If I were President, I'd say point out the part of the Constitution that says this and leave it in their hands. Pass a clean bill or bust the economy. I'd continue to point that out on a daily basis until they cave, or the government defaults. You don't negotiate with terrorists.

 

[Joe Chi Min]

 

[brogdale]

The National Debt Under Every US President in the Last 100 Years – 24/7 Wall St.

The United States government is on the brink of defaulting on its debt. Since surpassing its $31.4 trillion borrowing cap in January 2023, the federal government has remained solvent through extraordinary measures enacted by the Treasury Department. The efficacy of these measures have a rapidly...

247wallst.com

Just Facts - National Debt

Comprehensive and meticulously documented facts about the national debt. Learn about various measures of the national debt, contributing factors, consequences, and more.

www.justfacts.com

Feels like a subject gaining worthyness of the popcorn and deckchair that is a thread

That first article you've linked to is really crying out for a graph or few. Here's a useful one showing public Fed debt as a % of GDP:

 

[gosub]

This is a game that the Republicans play to try to destroy the economy during Democratic administrations. It's been going on for years. I've heard it called "the reverse Santa Clause" theory. The idea is that you stave the economy during Democratic administrations by yelling about the deficit and trying to cut the budget. During Republican administrations, they spend, spend, spend. The debt ceiling is one way they've done this by refusing the raise the debt limit unless deep cuts are made to social programs, including Social Security, which isn't technically part of the federal budget (it occupies its own separate accounting sheet).

If I were the President, I'd put an end to this tactic by calling them on it. The Constitution puts budgeting and spending on the House, which is currently controlled by Republicans. They can raise the debt ceiling any time they want with a clean bill to do so. Instead, they're using it as a hostage to get cuts to social programs. If I were President, I'd say point out the part of the Constitution that says this and leave it in their hands. Pass a clean bill or bust the economy. I'd continue to point that out on a daily basis until they cave, or the government defaults. You don't negotiate with terrorists.

Agree that's been a thing though pork barrelling also happens. What makes it bit different now....Well for a start debt is north of 100% of GDP.

Biden has managed to reduce spending tbf. Though equally tbf....being able to reduce the covid spend would do that

 

[NoXion]

Oh fuck me, not this bullshit again.

 

[brogdale]

Oh fuck me, not this bullshit again.

Oh, I dunno...there are some interesting things to discuss about public debt, after all it lies at the heart of what drives policy direction in neoliberal consolidator states.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Agree that's been a thing though pork barrelling also happens. What makes it bit different now....Well for a start debt is north of 100% of GDP.

Biden has managed to reduce spending tbf. Though equally tbf....being able to reduce the covid spend would do that

Yes, the debt needs to either come down or GDP needs to rise. North of 100% of GDP isn't where you really want to be. I don't think doing it under these conditions would result in the best way to reduce that debt.

 

[gosub]

Oh, I dunno...there are some interesting things to discuss about public debt, after all it lies at the heart of what drives policy direction in neoliberal consolidator states.

If you look at it that way...
The neoliberal consolidator states have, in recent year escalated the weaponization of money...

Spat with globally significant energy and food provider, rising tensions with another that has expansionist designs and its own economic problems

Plus the divided US politic system and a Presidential election coming up...

The 'bullshit' last time exposed how close to the breadline a lot of federal workers are...and the situation now is even more complicated. As I said debt is about 120% of GDP. When it was less than 100% you could at least a token debate on you are going to pay this back aren't you? At 120% question of how are you going to pay this back? Especially since the previous method -inflate the debt away has given the Fed an inflation head ache.

 

[NoXion]

Oh, I dunno...there are some interesting things to discuss about public debt, after all it lies at the heart of what drives policy direction in neoliberal consolidator states.

OK, but the Republicans sure as fuck aren't interested in having that conversation, and they're the instigators of this nonsense.

 

[brogdale]

OK, but the Republicans sure as fuck aren't interested in having that conversation, and they're the instigators of this nonsense.

Yeah, yeah, of course there's what neoliberal political parties say, but it's what they've done and do wrt public debt that interests me. I think quite a few folk who are pretty clued up on matters political/ideological are still a tad perplexed by the fact that public debt seems to accelerate most under the administrations of governing parties that promise to cut it.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Yeah, yeah, of course there's what neoliberal political parties say, but it's what they've done and do wrt public debt that interests me. I think quite a few folk who are pretty clued up on matters political/ideological are still a tad perplexed by the fact that public debt seems to accelerate most under the administrations of governing parties that promise to cut it.

It's absolutely shocking that a politician wouldn't follow through on their promises.

 

[brogdale]

It's absolutely shocking that a politician wouldn't follow through on their promises.

Oh yes, but's what more shocking about neoliberal state actors making such promises is that, in reality, they determinedly believe in replacing taxes on capital & wealth with debt paid for by taxing labour. They want more and more debt.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Oh yes, but's what more shocking about neoliberal state actors making such promises is that, in reality, they determinedly believe in replacing taxes on capital & wealth with debt paid for by taxing labour. They want more and more debt.

The percentage of taxes paid by the ultra-wealthy and corporations has been steadily going down since 1980. If you look closely, you can see clearly why they prefer to use debt. They not only get lower taxes, but they can monetize the debt, make a profit off it, and leave the bills for the lower and middle class. It's easy to like debt if you own it. Since 1980 the entire system has been offloading more and more responsibilities on those least able to pay. They've offloaded employee training, which used to be on the employer. Now they demand such tailored job skills, even for unpaid internships, that they don't need to invest in people anymore. Some have even tricked on the idea of charging new employees for training costs or billing them for the costs if the employee decides to leave. As one of my neighbors put it: "they've put us up on blocks and they're stripping us for parts." This will end badly for everyone unless they change direction.

 

[platinumsage]

Yes, the debt needs to either come down or GDP needs to rise. North of 100% of GDP isn't where you really want to be. I don't think doing it under these conditions would result in the best way to reduce that debt.

Or, inflation persists above target so that the real value of the debt declines in relation annual GDP.

 

[brogdale]

The percentage of taxes paid by the ultra-wealthy and corporations has been steadily going down since 1980. If you look closely, you can see clearly why they prefer to use debt. They not only get lower taxes, but they can monetize the debt, make a profit off it, and leave the bills for the lower and middle class. It's easy to like debt if you own it. Since 1980 the entire system has been offloading more and more responsibilities on those least able to pay. They've offloaded employee training, which used to be on the employer. Now they demand such tailored job skills, even for unpaid internships, that they don't need to invest in people anymore. Some have even tricked on the idea of charging new employees for training costs or billing them for the costs if the employee decides to leave. As one of my neighbors put it: "they've put us up on blocks and they're stripping us for parts." This will end badly for everyone unless they change direction.

Good post.

As old Streecky puts it in "How will capitalism end?":


And concerns about state indebtedness are always articulated through the financial markets' concerns about their ability to service any given level of borrowing. In order to convince them of this states adopt consolidation policies which are rarely, if ever about ceasing to borrow more from the global wealth funds but always about cutting expenditure, privatising more functions and passing costs on to workers.

 

[brogdale]

Or, inflation persists above target so that the real value of the debt declines in relation annual GDP.

But the global wealth fund lenders are not too keen on the 'haircuts' that are associated with such 'fiscal repression".

 

[gosub]

How Biden can expose the farcical GOP stance on the debt ceiling

If we’re playing along with Republicans’ fiction that this is a real negotiation, then both sides should be able to get something.

www.msnbc.com

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The percentage of taxes paid by the ultra-wealthy and corporations has been steadily going down since 1980. If you look closely, you can see clearly why they prefer to use debt. They not only get lower taxes, but they can monetize the debt, make a profit off it, and leave the bills for the lower and middle class. It's easy to like debt if you own it. Since 1980 the entire system has been offloading more and more responsibilities on those least able to pay. They've offloaded employee training, which used to be on the employer. Now they demand such tailored job skills, even for unpaid internships, that they don't need to invest in people anymore. Some have even tricked on the idea of charging new employees for training costs or billing them for the costs if the employee decides to leave. As one of my neighbors put it: "they've put us up on blocks and they're stripping us for parts." This will end badly for everyone unless they change direction.

Strangely enough I saw a news story on the practice of sticking people with "training costs" if they leave a job. Here's story about nurses and how they've been treated by a for-profit healthcare hedgefund. They would hire nurses and subject them to severe understaffing, leaving patients with substandard care. Then, if a nurse couldn't cut the grind, they'd bill them for their training costs and any hiring bonuses they received. One nurse got a bill for $14,000. The company had $5 billion in profits last year:

'Indentured servitude': Nurses hit with hefty debt when trying to leave hospitals

Requiring nurses to repay for training programs has become increasingly common, with some hospitals sending $15,000 bills.

www.nbcnews.com

The lives of patients and the health and wellbeing of nurses is being undermined so that a small minority of investors can rake in billions. This is the end result of a political and medical system being run for the profiteers and not the rest of society. The really bizarre thing here is that you know a lot of politicians would line up to defend them. We're never going to have a workable medical system as long as these kinds of things are allowed to continue.

BTW: The "nursing shortage" they describe is mostly due to two factors: nurse burnout from people leaving the profession and lack of qualified nursing schools. Both of these are fixable issues.

 

[brogdale]

Slapping exit “training costs” on nurses in the UK would be difficult for the government as they’ve already facilitated debt farming for their fincap masters by making the job grad entry with all the front loaded fees that includes.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Slapping exit “training costs” on nurses in the UK would be difficult for the government as they’ve already facilitated debt farming for their fincap masters by making the job grad entry with all the front loaded fees that includes.

These are already people with nursing degrees and student debt. The "training" they're being billed for is really corporate orientation, not really medical training. I think you underestimate the ability of hedge fund managers to invent ways to squeeze cash out of a stone, especially when enabled by lawmakers on the payroll.

 

[kabbes]

Yes, the debt needs to either come down or GDP needs to rise. North of 100% of GDP isn't where you really want to be.

Why do you say this as a matter of principle?

I think that terminology doesn’t really help us here. By using the same word for government debt as for private debt, we imply that they are similar phenomena. But they are really not. For a start, across a closed economy, net debt is always zero. Within a country that has an open economy, that is not the case, but it is still certainly not as straightforward as implied by only looking at one half of the balance sheet. Also, debt created for production is not the same thing as debt created to sustain a speculation bubble, but they are treated the same.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Why do you say this as a matter of principle?

I think that terminology doesn’t really help us here. By using the same word for government debt as for private debt, we imply that they are similar phenomena. But they are really not. For a start, across a closed economy, net debt is always zero. Within a country that has an open economy, that is not the case, but it is still certainly not as straightforward as implied by only looking at one half of the balance sheet. Also, debt created for production is not the same thing as debt created to sustain a speculation bubble, but they are treated the same.

I thought the way I used the word implied the US government debt.

I agree that debt has different meanings and purposes in different contexts.

 

[gosub]

Why do you say this as a matter of principle?

I think that terminology doesn’t really help us here. By using the same word for government debt as for private debt, we imply that they are similar phenomena. But they are really not. For a start, across a closed economy, net debt is always zero. Within a country that has an open economy, that is not the case, but it is still certainly not as straightforward as implied by only looking at one half of the balance sheet. Also, debt created for production is not the same thing as debt created to sustain a speculation bubble, but they are treated the same.

But it is true at this moment in time....this debt ceiling extension won't be for some Roosevelt new deal quite the contrary. FED is trying to shed jobs and curb inflation at this point . This would be inflation causing money printing largely to service debts of a country living beyond its means.

 

[redsquirrel]

This would be inflation causing money printing largely to service debts of a country living beyond its means.

What does this even mean? How are these "means" established? How is the limit on them established?

 

[gosub]

What does this even mean? How are these "means" established? How is the limit on them established?

Bond auctions.


Fed was a year late in dealing with inflation calling it 'transitory'. Then there was talk of soft landings...there won't be and the markets are carrying on like bank bailouts are a given....where the fuck is moral hazard? And its a feedback loop that kicks off inflation again

 

[brogdale]

These are already people with nursing degrees and student debt. The "training" they're being billed for is really corporate orientation, not really medical training. I think you underestimate the ability of hedge fund managers to invent ways to squeeze cash out of a stone, especially when enabled by lawmakers on the payroll.

Blimey; yep that's just legalised corporate theft.

 

[brogdale]

Bond auctions.


Fed was a year late in dealing with inflation calling it 'transitory'. Then there was talk of soft landings...there won't be and the markets are carrying on like bank bailouts are a given....where the fuck is moral hazard? And its a feedback loop that kicks off inflation again

The global asset funds will lend to states all the while they are confident that the debt can be serviced; simple as. Countries with governments that have replaced tax burden with public debt are literally living below their means.