Unite General Secretary Election

[hitmouse]

I mean, I dunno if I have much interest in "cancelling" anyone either way - I didn't have a super high opinion of the guy before this, my opinion has not improved but it's whatever. I do kind of think that if you're setting yourself up as being a kind of challenger to Starmer, which does seem to be a bit of a theme of Beckett's campaign, then you should probably watch your back and not go around giving Starmer sticks to beat you with.

 

[brogdale]

The tweet was pro-refugee and called for a viciously racist government minister - along will everyone who supports institutional racism - to be deported. I'm amazed that people here think it reveals any racism. Poorly judged, yes. Racism, I highly doubt it.

ISWYM but the fact that, as someone offering Beckett support, you use the word 'doubt' kind of shows the category of error that he made.

 

[andysays]

I mean, you're wrong, but that's never stopped you from being a condescending arse in the past, so carry on...

In what way am I wrong? Can you actually quote a post on this thread where anyone suggests this twitter comment reveals that Beckett is racist, rather than someone with extremely poor judgement?

And are you actually a member of Unite as I and at least some of the other poster here are?

I personally don't much care about the effect of this, if any, on the Labour party, but I am concerned that someone who appeared to be one of the favourites to become the next General Secretary of the union which I'm a member of could show such poor judgement as to attempt to attack Patel in such a cack-handed way.

 

[ska invita]

It's a re-run of Rebecca Long-Baileys' completely unnecessary unforced error. If you hand your enemy a knife, don't be surprised if they stab you with it.

They're not that similar IMO - Long-Bailey's retweet of that article was absolutely weaponised and her demotion was a travesty - IMO,

I would guess Howard Beckett had been drinking

 

[Jeff Robinson]

In what way am I wrong? Can you actually quote a post on this thread where anyone suggests this twitter comment reveals that Beckett is racist, rather than someone with extremely poor judgement?

"If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well..."

"Stupid mistake or racist tell"

"Sometimes uncomfortable truths emerge when things are blurted out."

I think the most reasonable interpretation of these three quotes is that racism was a likely motivator of Beckett's remarks. Do you disagree?

 

[brogdale]

"If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well..."

"Stupid mistake or racist tell"

"Sometimes uncomfortable truths emerge when things are blurted out."

I think the most reasonable interpretation of these three quotes is that racism was a likely motivator of Beckett's remarks. Do you disagree?

Mine is the third; like you said...the comment leaves open the possibility that it revealed racism, but my comment was more focussed upon Beckett's knee-jerk use of the notion of deportation to deal with someone he finds objectionable.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Mine is the third; like you said...the comment leaves open the possibility that it revealed racism, but my comment was more focussed upon Beckett's knee-jerk use of the notion of deportation to deal with someone he finds objectionable.

So if it had been a white, British born Home Secretary deporting loads of refugees, you think there'd be something concerning about rhetorically calling for that Home Secretary to be deported?

 

[Sasaferrato]

"If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well..."

"Stupid mistake or racist tell"

"Sometimes uncomfortable truths emerge when things are blurted out."

I think the most reasonable interpretation of these three quotes is that racism was a likely motivator of Beckett's remarks. Do you disagree?

Yes, I do disagree.

Beckett's Tweet can be viewed in two ways, the first obviously as a racist and misogynistic remark.

The second, his use of words was careless, had he said 'Rather than deport these men it would be more equitable to deport the Home Secretary' then I doubt many eyebrows would be raised.

I have no horse in the race, I'm not a Unite member, and think that Ms Patel is an appalling Home Secretary.

 

[andysays]

"If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well..."

"Stupid mistake or racist tell"

"Sometimes uncomfortable truths emerge when things are blurted out."

I think the most reasonable interpretation of these three quotes is that racism was a likely motivator of Beckett's remarks. Do you disagree?

You'd have to confirm with those that made the posts precisely what they meant, but yes, I disagree. None of these three posts actually state that the poster thinks Beckett's comment reveals or demonstrates that he is a racist, or that racism was a likely motivator of his remarks.

 

[brogdale]

So if it had been a white, British born Home Secretary deporting loads of refugees, you think there'd be something concerning about rhetorically calling for that Home Secretary to be deported?

I'd have thought so, at least from those of us that oppose deportation?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

"If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well..."

"Stupid mistake or racist tell"

"Sometimes uncomfortable truths emerge when things are blurted out."

I think the most reasonable interpretation of these three quotes is that racism was a likely motivator of Beckett's remarks. Do you disagree?

Yup I disagree. The first quote is mine and you’ve chopped all of the context around it.

I’m assuming (especially as you’ve not answered the question Andysays has asked) that you aren’t a member of Unite. But I also assume you know enough about the history of both of the forerunner unions to know the role that race and racism in our union has historically played. As I say, again, given that history (and the fact it’s a white man talking about the child of migrants) and the position he occupies either Beckett has zero political judgement or worse. Either way, for someone standing for GS, he’s demonstrated that he’s not fit for purpose.

 

[splonkydoo]

Mine is the third; like you said...the comment leaves open the possibility that it revealed racism, but my comment was more focussed upon Beckett's knee-jerk use of the notion of deportation to deal with someone he finds objectionable.

It's not just someone he finds personally objectionable. It's also someone who has objectively introduced measures which would have seen her own parents not allowed in to the UK. Someone who is objectively a reactionary, and who is in charge of deporting people, on the morning of Eid no less. His comment must be seen in this context as a ham-fisted way of rhetorically saying that her policies of deportation are abhorrent and she needs to go.

You see if he had called for the likes of Rishi Sunak to be deported, or someone who is not directly engaged in a policy of deportation, then absolutely that would be a problem. But this isn't what happened.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You see if he had called for the likes of Rishi Sunak to be deported, or someone who is not directly engaged in a policy of deportation, then absolutely that would be a problem. But this isn't what happened.

Some calls for black people to be deported are okay. Just depends on the context. Right. Got it. Christ....

 

[splonkydoo]

Yup I disagree. The first quote is mine and you’ve chopped all of the context around it.

I’m assuming (especially as you’ve not answered the question Andysays has asked) that you aren’t a member of Unite. But I also assume you know enough about the history of both of the forerunner unions to know the role that race and racism in our union has historically played. As I say, again, given that history (and the fact it’s a white man talking about the child of migrants) and the position he occupies either Beckett has zero political judgement or worse. Either way, for someone standing for GS, he’s demonstrated that he’s not fit for purpose.

You might be right about issues concerning Unite, and the wisdom of Beckett in tweeting in the first place, which i'd broadly agree with.
However, this linked tweet gives a differing view on what I think is still an over-reaction.

 

[brogdale]

It's not just someone he finds personally objectionable. It's also someone who has objectively introduced measures which would have seen her own parents not allowed in to the UK. Someone who is objectively a reactionary, and who is in charge of deporting people, on the morning of Eid no less. His comment must be seen in this context as a ham-fisted way of rhetorically saying that her policies of deportation are abhorrent and she needs to go.

You see if he had called for the likes of Rishi Sunak to be deported, or someone who is not directly engaged in a policy of deportation, then absolutely that would be a problem. But this isn't what happened.

Fair points all, but no amount of context can really detract from the fact that he fucked up.

 

[splonkydoo]

Some calls for black people to be deported are okay. Just depends on the context. Right. Got it. Christ....

Is Sunak in charge of deportations? How many migrants has Patel actually deported and has kept in detention compared to Beckett? Was Beckett being literal in his tweet or was it rhetorical?

 

[kebabking]

It's not just someone he finds personally objectionable. It's also someone who has objectively introduced measures which would have seen her own parents not allowed in to the UK. Someone who is objectively a reactionary, and who is in charge of deporting people, on the morning of Eid no less. His comment must be seen in this context as a ham-fisted way of rhetorically saying that her policies of deportation are abhorrent and she needs to go.

You see if he had called for the likes of Rishi Sunak to be deported, or someone who is not directly engaged in a policy of deportation, then absolutely that would be a problem. But this isn't what happened.

If you have to work this hard to defend/mitigate something, you're probably wasting your time.

 

[splonkydoo]

I'm going to say again, it was a stupid thing to tweet for someone in his position, but there has been an over-reaction in response to it.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Yup I disagree. The first quote is mine and you’ve chopped all of the context around it.

How did the context change what i quoted? If you think that Beckett's reaction is that 'black people he doesn’t like' should be 'booted out' then you think he's a racist. Quit being so coy.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You might be right about issues concerning Unite, and the wisdom of Beckett in tweeting in the first place, which i'd broadly agree with.
However, this linked tweet gives a differing view on what I think is still an over-reaction.

Where I half agree with your tweet is this: the events in Glasgow were organised by ordinary people standing up against the state and reminding many of what genuine anti-racist politics looks like. Beckett contributed fuck all to that, and his opportunistic attempt to gain kudos in its shadow has deservedly backfired. On a more positive note the only people who’ll be supporting him now are idiots.

 

[splonkydoo]

If you have to work this hard to defend/mitigate something, you're probably wasting your time.

It's not hard to compare a literal claim with intent against a rhetorical one though, and context does also matter.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

How did the context change what i quoted? If you think that Beckett's reaction is that 'black people he doesn’t like' should be 'booted out' then you think he's a racist. Quit being so coy.

Here’s what I said Jeff:

Given the union’s chequered history on race - dockers for Enoch, the racist campaign against Bill Morris etc - if this was an attempt by Beckett to score some leftie posturing points then it raises some serious judgement questions. If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well....

As you can see I’m posing two possible motives. It’s for Beckett to explain his reasons and motivations, but whatever they are they look as ugly as fuck...

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Here’s what I said Jeff:

Given the union’s chequered history on race - dockers for Enoch, the racist campaign against Bill Morris etc - if this was an attempt by Beckett to score some leftie posturing points then it raises some serious judgement questions. If his genuine reaction to black people he doesn’t like is to think they should be booted out then, well....

As you can see I’m posing two possible motives. It’s for Beckett to explain his reasons and motivations, but whatever they are they look as ugly as fuck...

You're right, I did misread you so I apologise for that. I disagree with your assessment though.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm going to say again, it was a stupid thing to tweet for someone in his position, but there has been an over-reaction in response to it.

Bill Morris has shit politics. But he was a black working class man from West Brom who was eventually elected into the position that Beckett now seeks. The racism he faced - from stewards but also from elements at the top of the union - was sickening. An orchestrated whispering campaign based on his skin colour by men who also didn’t ‘have a racialist bone in their body’.

A few years previously workers and stewards from our union had mobilised and marched in support of Enoch Powell. The battle against racism and racists in our own ranks has been a long and difficult one and, if my experience is typical, one far from won. I know Beckett is an outsider in the sense that he’s never been a steward or rep and was parachuted in to the top of the union by dint of his lawyer background. But he will know the history. If he doesn’t he’s got no right to be standing for the job. If he does then his tweet was much more than stupid.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

You're right, I did misread you so I apologise for that. I disagree with your assessment though.

Fair fucks

 

[brogdale]

Where I half agree with your tweet is this: the events in Glasgow were organised by ordinary people standing up against the state and reminding many of what genuine anti-racist politics looks like. Beckett contributed fuck all to that, and his opportunistic attempt to gain kudos in its shadow has deservedly backfired. On a more positive note the only people who’ll be supporting him now are idiots.

Yep, that's the real context.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

For those not fully immersed in the context have a read of this:

Britain at Work 1945 - 1995

 

[splonkydoo]

Bill Morris has shit politics. But he was a black working class man from West Brom who was eventually elected into the position that Beckett now seeks. The racism he faced - from stewards but also from elements at the top of the union - was sickening. An orchestrated whispering campaign based on his skin colour by men who also didn’t ‘have a racialist bone in their body’.

A few years previously workers and stewards from our union had mobilised and marched in support of Enoch Powell. The battle against racism and racists in our own ranks has been a long and difficult one and, if my experience is typical, one far from won. I know Beckett is an outsider in the sense that he’s never been a steward or rep and was parachuted in to the top of the union by dint of his lawyer background. But he will know the history. If he doesn’t he’s got no right to be standing for the job. If he does then his tweet was much more than stupid.

OK that is a good post and gives more context I wasn't aware of.

 

[comrade spurski]

Unite is my union...if he wins the leadership I will join another.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Unite is my union...if he wins the leadership I will join another.

Decided who you are voting for yet?