Unite General Secretary Election

[One_Stop_Shop]

Look pal. When you get your shit sorted out in Unison; then, and only then might you have the right to comment on another union. So, why not spend your time more profitably; and, sort out your own mess. We in Unite will endeavour to look after ourselves; ok?

This kind of crap is something the trade union movement really doesn't need, it's syndicalism at its worse. We are all fighting for the same thing, or should be. The problems in all the unions are similar in terms of the self-serving bureaucracy. I work my arse off trying to change things in UNISON, so don't need a lecture on that pal.

The more people in other unions who criticise the way UNISON is run, with the self-serving sycophants at the top who witch hunt the members the better.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The concrete issue is whether you'd rather have a left bureaucrat or a right bureaucrat. That's what it comes down to, and the answer is a left bureaucrat.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

The concrete issue is whether you'd rather have a left bureaucrat or a right bureaucrat. That's what it comes down to, and the answer is a left bureaucrat.

No it's not. Because a soft social democratic bureaucrat, at the end of the day, has no answers for what we will face in the coming years. Woodley wasn't what was needed, and neither is McCluskey. We will be defeated, without a doubt, if we can't do better than that. I don't mean just a general secretary but about the whole way the unions are run.

As a side note I think people should always be a bit careful at predicting results. I don't think Hicks will win but a lot of the left wrote off Serwotka in exactly the same way and there was ridicule of those who supported him in a similar way to this. Those who at the time said the best we can do is a left bureaucrat (if his opponent could even be described as that), have never said much about it since, they certainly haven't made much of the fact that they got it totally and utterly wrong.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Looking round a few pro-Hicks left websites. Is this true?

When the bosses in the media were terrified that BA workers might strike at Easter, hitting profits hard, it was McCluskey who rushed to rule it out. He drafted the new Unite rulebook, which stops branches even electing delegates to regional and national conferences of the union!


Worse still, McCluskey has never objected at Unite executive meetings when they condemn unofficial action forced on workers facing pay cuts and the dole.

It also looks like he has had an appalling role in both Gate Gourmet and the BA strike.

 

[Urbanblues]

Looking round a few pro-Hicks left websites. Is this true?.

Oh dear. You really are the complete cunt; aren't you?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Oh dear. You really are the complete cunt; aren't you?

Bit OTT. You working on the McCluskey campaign or something?

 

[moon23]

Ballot papers are out. Candidates are:

Les Bayliss
Gail Cartmail
Jerry Hicks
Len McCluskey

Think I might go for McCluskey, seems to be saying the right things.

Anyone got any strong opinions on the candidates?

A bunch of self-serving fat cats, that's my strong opinon!

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

A bunch of self-serving fat cats, that's my strong opinon!

Obviously you know nothing about them especially to be fair to him, Hicks.

But then you are a Libdum scum bag.

 

[moon23]

Obviously you know nothing about them especially to be fair to him, Hicks.

But then you are a Libdum scum bag.

I was a UNITE memeber for a number of years an a branch officer.

 

[Fedayn]

I was a UNITE memeber for a number of years an a branch officer.

Do you mean UNITE or UNISON?

 

[magneze]

I saw Hicks on Dispatches and was thinking of voting for him. However, a couple of things in his statement in the election guff didn't quite make sense. Firstly he starts talking about scrapping Trident - sure, this is a good idea, but I really don't see why Unite would be campaigning on this rather than their members interests - it seemed like a waste of time. Secondly he makes a big deal about taking an average wage - is this a big deal?

No-one has mentioned Gail Cartmail so far - not a contender?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Average workers wage is a big deal imo, yes. It isn't just symbolic - it ensures the interests of union bureaucrats are the same interests as the workers. Genuine performance related pay.

Moon, you weren't in Unite, you fucking fool.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Oh dear. You really are the complete cunt; aren't you?

Great answer. This is typical of so many on the left, rather than engage, just mindless defensive insults.

 

[Urbanblues]

Bit OTT. You working on the McCluskey campaign or something?

Yes, I am. That's what activists who support a candidate do.

As for being OTT. I reserve the right to be critical of morons who are ignorant of issues yet still believe they've a right to make 'informed' comments. The twat One_Stop_Shop isn't only ignorant of the Unite GS election issues; he has to go “Looking round a few pro-Hicks left websites.” to form his ill-judged opinions.

Not exactly the way for a neutral outsider to form an objective opinion, is it? But then, why should OSS give a toss for objectivity; objectivity is usually the first casualty when lefties go against lefties.

 

[colacubes]

No-one has mentioned Gail Cartmail so far - not a contender?

I think I'm going to vote for her on the basis that no one seems to be throwing their toys out of the pram about her on this thread

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yes, I am. That's what activists who support a candidate do.

As for being OTT. I reserve the right to be critical of morons who are ignorant of issues yet still believe they've a right to make 'informed' comments. The twat One_Stop_Shop isn't only ignorant of the Unite GS election issues; he has to go “Looking round a few pro-Hicks left websites.” to form his ill-judged opinions.

Not exactly the way for a neutral outsider to form an objective opinion, is it? But then, why should OSS give a toss for objectivity; objectivity is usually the first casualty when lefties go against lefties.

I have to say I think your campaigning style may prove to be a little counter-productive.

 

[belboid]

Looking round a few pro-Hicks left websites. Is this true?

"When the bosses in the media were terrified that BA workers might strike at Easter, hitting profits hard, it was McCluskey who rushed to rule it out. He drafted the new Unite rulebook, which stops branches even electing delegates to regional and national conferences of the union!


Worse still, McCluskey has never objected at Unite executive meetings when they condemn unofficial action forced on workers facing pay cuts and the dole. "

It also looks like he has had an appalling role in both Gate Gourmet and the BA strike.

aah, the inspired anaylsis of Workers Power - total Unite membership, 0.

If that is the best they can come up with, it just shows how far removed from TU reality they are.

The idea that the best time for BA to strike is Easter, cos thats when profits are biggest,. is simply wrong. The biggest profits are made from business travellers who avoid easter, which is why strikes were concentrated in times to inconvenience them, not holidaymakers. Only an idiot would recomend a line of action that fucks off more people without any significant gain from doing so.

As to the rule book, well this is a simple matter of shameful dissembling from them. LM was part of the team that wrote the book, a democratically elected team. It chose to follow the T&G rulebook more than the Amicus one, which Jerry isn't happy about, even tho the T&G rules were (imo)more democratic, less bureaucratic and more suiting to the new union. Branches have never elected delegates direct to conference, because there are simply too many branches. At the last T&G confs my branch was part of a region that sent 9 delegates from the 30 odd branches. So, thats not a serious criticism either.

As to their last reason, thats the most laughable. When WP had an union exec member, I bet they never objected to the, legally obligatory, repudiation of unofficial action. Not that Unite does repudiate all that often, far from it. And it is noteworthy that WP can't come up wih any examples when Lens silence has actually had a deleterious effect. Probably because they know, really, that its all nonsense.

 

[belboid]

UB reaction may be a tad OTT, but when faced with such on onslaught of ill-informed insistence, it aint that surprising.

 

[belboid]

I saw Hicks on Dispatches and was thinking of voting for him. However, a couple of things in his statement in the election guff didn't quite make sense. Firstly he starts talking about scrapping Trident - sure, this is a good idea, but I really don't see why Unite would be campaigning on this rather than their members interests - it seemed like a waste of time. Secondly he makes a big deal about taking an average wage - is this a big deal?

No-one has mentioned Gail Cartmail so far - not a contender?

Hicks' appearance on that anti-union Dispatches programme does offer a pretty good indication into his lack of judgement, imo. A good reason not to vote for him.

re Trident - well, the money saved could then be invested/not cut from areas where there are Unite members, so it would be useful. Probly not the key concern of the members at the mo tho.

Cartmail, must admit I'd barely heard of her as a T&Ger, I'd be surprised if she topped 10%

 

[The39thStep]

I take it that Belboid is no longer sympathetic to Workers Power

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

As for being OTT. I reserve the right to be critical of morons who are ignorant of issues yet still believe they've a right to make 'informed' comments. The twat One_Stop_Shop isn't only ignorant of the Unite GS election issues; he has to go “Looking round a few pro-Hicks left websites.” to form his ill-judged opinions.

Not exactly the way for a neutral outsider to form an objective opinion, is it? But then, why should OSS give a toss for objectivity; objectivity is usually the first casualty when lefties go against lefties.

Another empty post. I asked whether it was true and you just come back with abuse. You still haven't explained in any way how soft social democratic, Labour Party supporting politics will take unions forward.

At least belboid has come back with an answer, if not much of one. Are you saying that the dispute was inevitably going to be defeated? Because at the moment it looks like a total and utter defeat with workers worse off than when they started. Is that right, as that is how it seems? Surely there must have been a better strategy than the one pushed by McCluskey and Woodley or are you saying that's as good as it gets. If so then we're even more fucked than I thought.

What about Gate Gourmet, do you support the strategy supported by McCluskey there as well?

Do you think that Len is a real way forward? Is that really as good as it gets?

Hicks' appearance on that anti-union Dispatches programme does offer a pretty good indication into his lack of judgement, imo. A good reason not to vote for him.

Maybe but what about the judgement of McCluskey being happy to take a 200k+ salary? Someone happy to take 200k+ while their members suffer says it all really.

 

[belboid]

What did Len do re Gate Gourmet? Any chance you coming out with some specifics, rather than some meaingless gibberish about him selling them out? Or are you just gouing to repeat rubbish you dont understand, and which isnt actually true anyway? If you do that, why the fuck should anyone takle you seriously? You havent got one thing right in your stream of bile against the union. Not even the fucking GS's salary.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

So you seriously think that the Gate Gourmet dispute was led as well as it should have been by Len and the other union leaders, you think that is the best that could have been done?

Also it's not a stream of bile against union, you're just being ridiculous now, it's a criticising leadership of UNITE. You seem to have a totally uncritical stance of Len and if you think that's the best we can get it's a pretty depressing outlook. According to the reports I've read the negotiated settlement led to the workers losing their jobs. Are you saying this isn't true or that's the best that could have been done?

What is the wage for the GS then? Simpson earns over 200k and doesn't deny it. Also according to Hicks:

the lowest pay package of the other 3 candidates all of whom are Assistant General Secretaries is £98,000 a year

and also that there are

11 General Secretaries of UNITE

It's also the same in UNISON, ranks and ranks of full timers while our members suffer. Reading about more militiant unions in other countries and in the past there have literally been a handful of them and that's the way it should be in my view. All it does is disempower members and create a self-serving elite in the union. The fact that so many candidates in UNITE and UNISON are full-timers shows this.

 

[belboid]

you're not very good at answering questions are you? In fact, you simply refuse to do so. Or to give any specifics details, despite being asked.

Be honest, you have no interest in an actual discussion. Nor any understanding of basic things like strategy or tactics.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

No the work I do day in day out in my union branch requires no strategy or tactics at all, you're just being silly now.

You are in UNITE, you will know more details than me, so I'm asking you do you think that the Gate Gourmet defeat where lots of workers lost their jobs was the best that could have been done? Do you think that the situation in BA where workers seem to have ended up in a worse situation than they were a year ago is the best that could have been done? If you do then it's a bleak outlook, if not, what do you think could have been done better and don't you think McCluskey should take responsibility as a leading figure?

Are you happy for him to be on 98k a year or that GS to earn such huge sums?

Do you think that soft social democratic politics like McCluskey has are enough?

You can lash out at my posts and at Hicks as much as you like, and I freely admit you will will know more details than me, but that doesn't change anything about what good old Len is or what he represents in terms of his politics, tactics and strategy. You seem to be an almost uncritical cheerleader of him.

As an aside it's quite funny that UB brings up Hicks campaign manager when McCluskey is using Kevin Coyne.

 

[belboid]

I'm not 'lashing out' at your posts, i am pointing out that they are ill-informed and ignorant, based upon a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the union, and a complete lack of interest in actually finding out any details about those things. Added to that is your complete refusal to answer any questions put to you, your dismissal of replies given, and your refusal to duiscuss the facts of Hicks' actual campaign (apparently they dont matter!). Nothing will be added by continuing such a one-sided discussion.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

You keep saying the same things over and over about it being ignorant and ill-informed but you don't say how or add any facts to what you are saying, just an uncritical defence of Len. Obviously as a UNITE activist you will know more than me as a UNISON activist, but rather than say what details are wrong you come back with more insults and vague statements. If I've got it wrong about the GS wage why not just say what it is so everyone knows? If anyone won't answer anything it is you (look above you haven't answered anything I've asked), and you are in far better situation to do so given you are an activist in UNITE.

The reason I'm not discussing Hicks is because I'm not in his campaign, so don't see why I should. I actively supported Paul Holmes in UNISON and did answer details about it and said why I thought people should back him, and a lot of that was around the fact that despite my political disagreements he was a rank and file candidate who had helped build up a strong branch with a strong rank and file and is a socialist.

I'm talking about McCluskey on here and don't see why that should be sidelined by going on about Hicks, whose campaign I'm not involved with.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Simpson on xmas strikes:

But what you seek to misrepresent is that I’ve publicly said, it’s been reported in the wider press, that I didn’t think declaring 12 days strike at Xmas was a very clever decision. I thought it handed a PR goal to the other side, it attacked the wrong people, families who were going away at Xmas

Do you think Simpson was wrong to come out and say this belboid? If not why have you said:

The idea that the best time for BA to strike is Easter, cos thats when profits are biggest,. is simply wrong. The biggest profits are made from business travellers who avoid easter, which is why strikes were concentrated in times to inconvenience them, not holidaymakers. Only an idiot would recomend a line of action that fucks off more people without any significant gain from doing so.

So were the BA strikers who wanted to take 12 days over the xmas period idiots?

 

[belboid]

You really are moronically ignorant. Fuck. Off.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Good answer.