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understanding China better

fela fan said:
There's a third mate. They're a threat to world peace and it's much better to have an american empire than a chinese one, which they are hell-bent on creating.

Well, the Chinese have invaded a few places in the last 50 years, namely Tibet, and their policies towards the Uighurs are hardly anything to write home about!

But I'm not sure they pose more threat to countries outside their immediate hemisphere than the Americans do.

I do hear chinese people say that they hope one day they 'kill' Japan. Sometimes they mean militarily, sometimes merely that china becomes the dominant economic force in the region. There's still a lot of bitterness over Japanese treatment of the Chinese in WW2.
 
RenegadeDog said:
Well, the Chinese have invaded a few places in the last 50 years, namely Tibet, and their policies towards the Uighurs are hardly anything to write home about!

But I'm not sure they pose more threat to countries outside their immediate hemisphere than the Americans do.

I do hear chinese people say that they hope one day they 'kill' Japan. Sometimes they mean militarily, sometimes merely that china becomes the dominant economic force in the region. There's still a lot of bitterness over Japanese treatment of the Chinese in WW2.

I noticed from reading the papers. Its the same in South Korea.

Theres a hotel near the one I stay at in Zhuhai (perhpas RB can confirm this story). A year or two ago (I think) there was a conference for a Japanese electronic firm in this hotel. Roughly about 30 executives there. Following the meeting they hired (depends who you talk to :p ;) ) 200 hookers and proceeded to get plastered, had a massive orgy and trashed the place.

The CEO of said company was sentenced to death and it was a big scandal!

One changed I've also noticed is creativity. China used to be a place where it was just copy, copy, copy. There are now young designers with their own ideas of how things should be, I haven't been to Shanghai, but a friend of mine is always bringing really amazing clothes back from there that have their own unique styling. Hong Kong used to just copy Japan, but now it has it's own style too.
 
Interesting point about creativity there. It's always been one concern of mine, that they don't come up with much in the way of new ideas, they just imitate, or come up with strange variants on western concepts, like salad with sweet mayo on it instead of vinaigrette :eek: .

Stylistically I think the main fashion trends in Wuhan are like a mixture between 90s Japanese trendy techno-kid and 80s pop-mullet. An interesting blend.

If you look at the hairdressers in particular they seem to dress in this fashion...
 
RenegadeDog said:
Interesting point about creativity there. It's always been one concern of mine, that they don't come up with much in the way of new ideas, they just imitate, or come up with strange variants on western concepts, like salad with sweet mayo on it instead of vinaigrette :eek: .

Stylistically I think the main fashion trends in Wuhan are like a mixture between 90s Japanese trendy techno-kid and 80s pop-mullet. An interesting blend.

If you look at the hairdressers in particular they seem to dress in this fashion...

It's starting to happen, it's early days but it's definately happening.

As regards food, there's often assumptions made about what kind of food we like to eat. Whenever someone tries to impress us by cooking something 'Western Style' it invariably means coating it in something I can only describe as sweetened mayonnaise with pink food colouring. (I remember a UK journalist eating something like this and describing it as Barbie Doll sauce). As for the desserts - they have so much food colouring in they are practically fluorescent. It's hard to find fruit juice in Hong kong that deosn't have sugar in it. In a way it reminds me of the food I ate in the UK as a kid in the 1970's. Yesterday I passed a bag of mixed nuts and raisins round the office. They told me they found it strange that I would eat something in it's natural state, with no colourings, sauce or anything! Perhaps we've gone full circle in the West, from natural to processed back to natural again.
 
What kind of 'equality' is there between the sexes? I mean, do women get generally the same kind of work opportunities? What is the average chinaman's attitude towards women these days? Is it one of equal respect, or one of dominance?

[Obviously that can only really apply to the cities, coz i understand the practice of foot-binding still continues in some rural areas.]

I'm asking coz i'd like to get an idea of how they compare to the situation in thailand.
 
fela fan said:
What kind of 'equality' is there between the sexes? I mean, do women get generally the same kind of work opportunities? What is the average chinaman's attitude towards women these days? Is it one of equal respect, or one of dominance?

[Obviously that can only really apply to the cities, coz i understand the practice of foot-binding still continues in some rural areas.]

I'm asking coz i'd like to get an idea of how they compare to the situation in thailand.

I think footbinding has probably died out by now. There are still some elderly women who have bound feet though.

I can only go from my own experience. The general manager of the hotel I stay in is female. The manager of the place I'm working (and all the supervisors and managers) are male. The men make the tea as much as the women and the workforce is about 50/50 male and female. There used to be far more women if you go back five or ten years, but enough women just aren't coming to this region to look for work anymore (there have been worker shortages since Chinese new year) so perhaps that's why I'm seeing more men. There probably is the same glass ceiling as everywhere else, but one other place I visit, my main contact is female and holds a very high position in the company, with lots of male managers under her. The company is very Westernised though.

TBH I found it more sexist in South Korea - I've had incidences where the people I've gone there to work with have groped me or made passes (nothing a well placed slap won't put paid to though :p ) , I've had incidents in Taiwan too, but I think beer goggles might've come into it, because everyone gets so paralytic on alcohol out there.

I did work in Thailand about ten years ago - office manager was South Korean and very sexist (to me and his staff), but my main contacts there were two Thai girls in their early twenties and they often travelled to the UK for meetings on their own (and hated the weather very much! ;) ).

At the end of the day, it's pretty much obvious that men still have the upper hand. After all, there are so few female children since the one child policy.

I'm sure if I spoke Mandarin, I'd notice much more.........
 
pinkmonkey said:
I'm sure if I spoke Mandarin, I'd notice much more.........

Heh! Maybe pinkmonkey you'd do better not to speak it more then! Going by my experiences of having grasped the thai language and since having moved out of bangkok, that is.

Anyway, it doesn't sound too bad then. To me the most progressive countries in the world are where men afford equal respect to women as they do to their fellow men. Historically men dominated, and part of human's evolution is to release that domination.

Thailand has a long way to go unfortunately.
 
pinkmonkey said:
As regards food, there's often assumptions made about what kind of food we like to eat. Whenever someone tries to impress us by cooking something 'Western Style' it invariably means coating it in something I can only describe as sweetened mayonnaise with pink food colouring. (I remember a UK journalist eating something like this and describing it as Barbie Doll sauce). As for the desserts - they have so much food colouring in they are practically fluorescent. It's hard to find fruit juice in Hong kong that deosn't have sugar in it. In a way it reminds me of the food I ate in the UK as a kid in the 1970's. Yesterday I passed a bag of mixed nuts and raisins round the office. They told me they found it strange that I would eat something in it's natural state, with no colourings, sauce or anything! Perhaps we've gone full circle in the West, from natural to processed back to natural again.

Yeah, one of the big disappointments for me in China has been the lack of good fruit juice. You can get 'juice drinks' easily, but decent orange juice is quite expensive, in relative terms (14 yuan or so for a litre carton).

In other asian countries there have always been people on the street freshly squeezing juices, but here there's nothing like that.

Have you tried any of the wierd 'sweet pea soup' type drinks the street vendors sell?
 
RenegadeDog said:
Yeah, one of the big disappointments for me in China has been the lack of good fruit juice. You can get 'juice drinks' easily, but decent orange juice is quite expensive, in relative terms (14 yuan or so for a litre carton).

In other asian countries there have always been people on the street freshly squeezing juices, but here there's nothing like that.

Have you tried any of the wierd 'sweet pea soup' type drinks the street vendors sell?

Yes I have. Also it's quite common to get served strawberry flavoured milk in restaurants when you arrive.
 
fela fan said:
What kind of 'equality' is there between the sexes? I mean, do women get generally the same kind of work opportunities? What is the average chinaman's attitude towards women these days? Is it one of equal respect, or one of dominance?

[Obviously that can only really apply to the cities, coz i understand the practice of foot-binding still continues in some rural areas.]

I'm asking coz i'd like to get an idea of how they compare to the situation in thailand.

Men still have more power than women. But, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, it isn't like the Middle East or India where women are basically totally 'inferior' and subjected to ridiculous rules due to religious hangups and prejudices. There's none of that crap. Chinese women seem friendly, talkative, not particularly socially repressed.

Economically though there's a long way to go. Unfortunately most major earners are men. most people in China who are well off/.earning a wage comparable to a western salary are businessmen. Women can run businesses like clothes shops, but not the top end stuff - much.
 
pinkmonkey said:
Yes I have. Also it's quite common to get served strawberry flavoured milk in restaurants when you arrive.

I actually quite like the flavoured milks. Yoghurt is good, and cheap here too...

Although, again, if you want completely plain yoghurt, it's difficult to get - virtually all of it is sweetened...
 
Well, I'm back in Hong Kong. Got the ferry back last night, we changed our plans (as per bloody usual ;) ). Unfortunately I don't think Jessiedog is around this weekend. Anybody else? :)
 
I raise my mint bubble drink high to fela for posting this thread ... from the Capitalists' Republic of China aka New York Cty :) Like that old fable of the blindmen feeling an elephant, we all chip in to describe a part of China that is abstract and simultaneously, quite real.

It's also good to *see* y'all again, Jessie, mao, RenegadeDog, pinkmonkey and, of course, ff. Thanks, peeps.
 
Concrete Meadow said:
I raise my mint bubble drink high to fela for posting this thread ... from the Capitalists' Republic of China aka New York Cty :) Like that old fable of the blindmen feeling an elephant, we all chip in to describe a part of China that is abstract and simultaneously, quite real.

It's also good to *see* y'all again, Jessie, mao, RenegadeDog, pinkmonkey and, of course, ff. Thanks, peeps.

Most welcome mate. Now, what does all that stuff mean below your name?! It looks good, i like many of the asian alphabets.

And any CM tales of the fair land?
 
fela fan said:
Most welcome mate. Now, what does all that stuff mean below your name?! It looks good, i like many of the asian alphabets.

And any CM tales of the fair land?

The first bit is something like life is beautiful, the second I'm not sure...
 
RenegadeDog said:
The first bit is something like life is beautiful, the second I'm not sure...

It says 'life is like a beautiful robe, crawling with fleas'. It appears to be a quote from Zhang Ailing (Eileen Zhang?)
 
RenegadeDog, very good for the first part :)

And [per usual] maomao guessed it :) The quote was from one of Zhang Ailing's essays written in Shanghai during WW2. In fact, Zhang Ailing was obsessed with fleas (or the elimination of them) during the latter part of her life in Los Angeles. (She was found dead on the floor of a seedy downtown apartment in the early 1990's.)

That was just part of a CM tale, fela, I'll be back with more :)
 
mao, I know you 看得懂 but I don't know you read Zhang as well (for some reasons I thought you are more interested in the classics; e.g. Sima Qin et al...)

I now change my statement to "per usual, maomao is spot on!" :)


fela, to answer one of your questions, I think Chinese people [between 15-35] in the urban areas are very international. Young university educated women in Shanghai, Beijing, and Guangdong are very similar to their counterparts in most urban areas around the world--although "face saving" is still an important public act in China and people are more reserved in a less familiar setting. Young men in China are also acting more and more like their counterparts in European countries. They are quite ambitious but [this is only my observation] are sometimes inapt in personal relationships.

In general, Chinese people my age [late 20's] are bright and very friendly. If I have to nitpick, it is a pity that they are less interested in politics--with good reasons, of course!

Re internet access. My friends from Shanghai and Shenyang both confirm that Geocities sites are banned from university computer labs but they can access them from their computers at home. Perhaps maomao can enlighten us in this area?
 
The place that I've been working at has no internet censorship either. The boss is quite happy to let the workers use the internet on the office computers at night after work has finished. But I'm not sure they're that interested in anything other than chatting to their boyfriends on MSN!
 
pinkmonkey said:
The place that I've been working at has no internet censorship either. The boss is quite happy to let the workers use the internet on the office computers at night after work has finished. But I'm not sure they're that interested in anything other than chatting to their boyfriends on MSN!

That or the annoying qq thing (penguin thing).

Perhaps it's because you are working for an international company, they want to make it look like there is no censorship etc?
 
Just back from Hainan.

Stunning, stunning beaches/mountains/sea.

You still here Pinks?


Interestingly on the "equality" thang....

Here in HK (and I assume southern mainland China,) it was never traditional for the woman to take the husbands name upon marriage (kids take their dad's surname). Wedding bands were not traditionally exchanged or worn (at least not western stylee). (P'raps others could say whether this is widespread across China?)

This perplexed the poor Brits when they arrived and yet until today remains the norm.

One result is the inability to identify a woman as single/married per se. This is very different than in the west, where traditionally marrried woman wore bands. In my mind, in modern (80's onwards), so-called "westernised" HK, this somehow seems to free many women from the stereotype that easy-classification gives/gave men the opportunity to impose upon women in the west. Particularly among westerners.

And particularly in the workplace.



On the other hand....

One of the consequenses of womens political/financial success in HK is now an imbalance of FEMALES TO MALES.

Traditionally, Chinese men tend to marry women less well educated/poorer than themselves - women marry up. Since China began to emerge slowly from isolation just over 25 years ago, many, many HK men have preferred to take a bride from the mainland - they perceive them as cheaper, less demanding, less "wordly wise", etc. compared to their HK compatriats whom they perceive as educated, career oriented, financially demanding and disinclined to have (many/any) children (HK has the worlds lowest natural population growth).

The result is some 250,000 more woman than men (out of a pop. @ 7,000,000) and, over 100,000 of these between 25 and 35 and single.

Many men have moved north (exacerbating the imbalance,) for it can take ten years waiting for a mainland wife to obtain an exit visa from mainland authorities to join hubby in HK (HK allows 55,000 family reunion resident visas per annum).

So, finally things come round full circle as educated, sophisticated, well travelled, financially secure, HK women are now frequently to be found in the environs of Shanghai, Beijing, and a few other mainland cities. Holidaying for sure, but also, perhaps, keeping half an eye open for that handsome, US educated, returnee, Shanghai business executive. A rising star in a newly privatised S.O.E perchance, with shares in his pocket and an eye for profit.

Ahhhhhh TRUE LOVE!

;)

Woof
 
pinkmonkey said:
The place that I've been working at has no internet censorship either. The boss is quite happy to let the workers use the internet on the office computers at night after work has finished. But I'm not sure they're that interested in anything other than chatting to their boyfriends on MSN!

Pink - yer BOSS may not censor it. But CHINA does. Over 40,000 dediccated state employed monitors. Both cyber cafes and Chat rooms (currently) over-regulated and the mother of all (most sophisticated on the planet apparantly,) electronic web surveillence and site-blocking systems.

EDIT: Try googling "Tiananmen masssacre". or "hardcore sex pictures" and see what you get (other than a knock at the door) :eek: .

:p


Give me a call if yer here - beers 'r' in fridge.

And all the 6 MEG broadband access you can handle to every web page on the planet (God bless HK! :) ).


:)

Woof
 
RenegadeDog said:
That or the annoying qq thing (penguin thing).

Perhaps it's because you are working for an international company, they want to make it look like there is no censorship etc?

This ones quite small - a partnership between a Chinse and a Taiwanese man, no other overseas investment and about 800 employees. Have to admit the boys in the IT dept are brilliant - if I ever need my laptop fixing, I know who to ask. :)
 
Jessiedog said:
Pink - yer BOSS may not censor it. But CHINA does. Over 40,000 dediccated state employed monitors. Both cyber cafes and Chat rooms (currently) over-regulated and the mother of all (most sophisticated on the planet apparantly,) electronic web surveillence and site-blocking systems.

EDIT: Try googling "Tiananmen masssacre". or "hardcore sex pictures" and see what you get (other than a knock at the door) :eek: .

:p


Give me a call if yer here - beers 'r' in fridge.

And all the 6 MEG broadband access you can handle to every web page on the planet (God bless HK! :) ).


:)

Woof

I guessed that the places I work/stay are not censored like the internet cafes are....hmm but I'm not sure I'd risk googling the above whilst away... ;)

I'm home now - complete change of plan so flew back on Monday, but I'm back in November.
 
pinkmonkey said:
This ones quite small - a partnership between a Chinse and a Taiwanese man, no other overseas investment and about 800 employees. Have to admit the boys in the IT dept are brilliant - if I ever need my laptop fixing, I know who to ask. :)

They probably work on some kind of proxy server, if you're sure there's no censorship of the BBC news pages or anything with blog in...
 
RenegadeDog said:
They probably work on some kind of proxy server, if you're sure there's no censorship of the BBC news pages or anything with blog in...

I could read any blog or news website I liked, yes. Blog is definately not blocked because I tried to search for it when you mentioned it.
 
Cool...

JD. Glad you liked Hainan. It is stunning isn't it, if not as laid back as the Thai islands. Combine two and you'd have perfection...

Fascinating about the women-men imbalance in HK> The opposite of the mainland, where there aren't enough women to go round.
 
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