planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
So troops and officers alike are scared of dying? Whoop-de-woo, I guess we'll take it. Shame their police aren't as scared when they're battering and imprisoning protesters.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
So troops and officers alike are scared of dying? Whoop-de-woo, I guess we'll take it. Shame their police aren't as scared when they're battering and imprisoning protesters.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There's a big difference, of course. The army is a conscript army. The police are eager volunteers.
editor
hiraethified
That is incredible.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh but I don't suppose the police are conscripts. Most of the Belarus army by contrast...
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I imagine they are very scared of the regime falling at the moment. It will be one of the things driving their appalling brutality.
bimble
floofy
that is the first bit of unequivocally good news for ages isnt it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Something I'm trying very hard to do in the midst of all this mess is to retain solidarity with conscripts from all sides who are caught up in this. Most of them will just be trying to come through it without being killed or having to kill anyone.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
What everyone is missing is that the the police aren't conscripts and the army are.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
Soldiers, especially conscripts have a reputation for not always wanting to do the dirty.
Pigs, gonna pig though.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Arm the protesters. Let's have a fair fight and see what that does to the eagerness of the police.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
and will doubtless be played on russian tv suitably overdubbed as overwhelming support for russia's liberation of ukraine.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You've forgotten you always take the opposite tack to me
Has this been reported elsewhere?
It sounds plausible, but not sure how reliable Charter97 is.
Dystopiary
All this aristocracy has really got to stop.
.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
No, well not yet, but as you say it sounds plausible, as there's been mounting pressure for them not to get involved.
We want to stop Belarusian troops fighting in Ukraine — Tsikhanouskaya
Exiled opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya told Euronews she wants to mobilise women in Belarus to try to prevent husbands and sons being sent to Ukraine.
www.euronews.com
Belarus military officer declares mutiny against Putin and Lukashenko saying it’s ‘not our war’ and tells troops to stop - London Business News | Londonlovesbusiness.com
Belarus military officer declares mutiny against Putin and Lukashenko saying it’s ‘not our war’ and tells troops to stop ...
londonlovesbusiness.com
Misleading headline there ^ he's an ex-officer.
Dystopiary
All this aristocracy has really got to stop.
Oh
I only saw the Prague one in bimble's post. Sorry. Will delete.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I think with the officers it’s the fear of not only being killed by Ukrainians but also being ‘accidentally’ shot in the back during a firefight.
( A tradition I’m sure goes back to at least 2525 BC when an officer from Umma was deemed to be an arrogant liability by his men tragically, yet strangely, died in an initial skirmish with Lagashian scouts.)
Cid
Proper break this time
Reports that Russians have moved out of central Kherson in response to protests...
ua.interfax.com.ua
Dunno whether that's really reflected in available video, but certainly they seem to have moved to defensive positions rather than trying to control the protestors.
Russian invaders left center of Kherson due to protests of local population – eyewitnesses
Because of the protests of the residents of Kherson, surrounded by Russian troops, the invaders left the city center, eyewitnesses have told Interfax-Ukraine.
ua.interfax.com.ua
Dunno whether that's really reflected in available video, but certainly they seem to have moved to defensive positions rather than trying to control the protestors.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Thanks for posting that it's added more to my understanding.Not true:
Myth 03: ‘Russia was promised that NATO would not enlarge’
www.chathamhouse.org
Exposing the myth of Western betrayal of Russia over NATO’s eastern enlargement
Thirty years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia is still peddling the old myth of Western betrayal of Russia by expanding NATO eastward after the end of the Cold War. Both Vladimir Puti…blogs.lse.ac.uk
cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
These demos in the south are amazing, considering the Russian-speaking south, is supposed to be the easiest places for the occupying troops, then there's is this also in the south.
The source, she's an executive director with the Anti-Corruption Action Centre - "We're curbing grand political corruption in Ukraine. Public finance monitoring, anti-money laundering, assets recovery."
The source, she's an executive director with the Anti-Corruption Action Centre - "We're curbing grand political corruption in Ukraine. Public finance monitoring, anti-money laundering, assets recovery."
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
I don't know if them being given verbal assurances was the case. It's something Chomsky has always said. That it was a gentleman's agreement... Which is a bit of odd thing to say or for a state to accept when dealing with security arrangements with a competing power. From that article I gathered it was more to do with NATO troops in Germany at that time and the 'not one inch to the east' was just in relation to Germany maybe?It certainly is
Re. Orwell: Was looking at a map of Dugin’s geopolitical conceptualisation of Russia and the rest of the world for the C21st.
The world map divided into 3 areas:
1. The Heartland (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Mongolia, the ‘stans, parts of Afghanistan)
2. The Rimland (Western Europe, India & other south Asian countries, SE Asia and China)
3. The rest of the world (USA, Central & South America, sub-Saharan Africa, Australasia etc)
Apparently this conceptual map wasn’t designed by Dugin, but he adopted it. Originally done by Sir Halford John Mackinder in 1904, the one I saw has areas 1 & 2 designated ‘Eurasia’! View attachment 312931
I did not know that. Thanks for posting this, an informative read in other aspects too (assuming Chatham House is a reputable source; LSE I would think reliable, it’s hardly a Tory / establishment university)
So if I understood the article correctly, although there were some verbal assurances of no eastward expansion, none were legally binding.
Interesting quote from this article:
“NATO’s Kosovo campaign in 1999 did far more to shape anti-Western attitudes in Russia than NATO enlargement did. Coinciding with a period of extreme weakness in Russia, it represented a crushing defeat for Russian diplomacy”
Didn’t Russia itself asked to join NATO but was rebuffed? (Just after the collapse of the USSR if I recall correctly)
This really stood out to me from both articles:
In addition, the USSR signed the Charter of Paris in November 1990 with the commitment to ‘fully recognize the freedom of States to choose their own security arrangements’. The NATO–Russia Founding Act, signed in 1997, similarly pledged respect for the ‘inherent right’ of all states ‘to choose the means to ensure their own security’.
And this from Chatham House one:
Despite his public opposition to enlargement at the time, Andrey Kozyrev (Russia’s foreign minister after the collapse of the USSR until 1996) recently stated: ‘The United States and NATO were on the right side of history by admitting new democracies to the Alliance and being willing to find an accommodation with Russia. It was Moscow that returned to its antagonism toward NATO.’
That from someone who held the same position as Lavrov does now.
I did actually believe this myths true and, yes, there's probably a few nuggets of truth here and there but I'm pleased to have been further schooled reading those articles. I am surprised to hear that what I thought was true is more about myth building and shows the depths Putin's administration will go to propagandise.
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cupid_stunt
Where's the bloody sun?
Doesn't look like they are asking for full membership yet, but...
teqniq
DisMembered
I haven't read large chunks of this thread because it's too fast moving but I just wanted to say one thing. The Russians should have been countered in Syria. The list of war crimes they are directly responsible for is unequivocal. Many lives could have been saved and we wouldn't most likely be where we are now wrt to Ukraine.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
You're right and I know you're well versed in what's been happening in Syria since the initial revolution. In hindsight it's quite surprising that the extent of crimes committed by Russia there weren't as widely covered in western media. Perhaps they were in other countries but I don't remember hearing them covered other than Aleppo being bombed. It was never presented as Russian war crimes though.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Sure the argument was or would have been the same then as now, that such a thing could have led to a confrontation with Russia and so ww3
discokermit
Well-Known Member
you musta missed this then, Fight for Ukraine
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
If they where to join it would have to be simultaneously wouldn't it? Or the other would be an immediate target.
Although that depends on the outcome of the current mess. It could be Russia ends up in not much of a position to threaten anyone.
teqniq
DisMembered
No, I didn't miss that but I am no fighter neither am I an armchair general but the fact that Russia has never been held to account for what they have done in Syria and no measures were taken to curb their excesses at the time has given them pretty much a green light for what is happening now in Ukraine.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
It’s almost like many people and media outlets in the West care more about blond white Ukrainian people than Arab people…
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