Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[SpackleFrog]

Sorry what logic are you referring to? I dont advocate chasing people around and explicitly said it could well be soneone else delivering that isn't affiliated with ukip.

Copernicus calling - he's not talking to you.

 

[frogwoman]

To be honest I am just as worried about the conspiraloon shit taffboy peddles as I am about ukip.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Let them deliver the leaflets. It's not difficult.

If a ukip came to your door to deliever a leaflet you'd take it or would you stop and try challenging their views?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

To be honest I am just as worried about the conspiraloon shit taffboy peddles as I am about ukip.

Find a conspiraloon post from me, then outline how such a post is as concerning as fanatic neoliberal bigots polling 20+ %. Or maybe just go and have a lie down instead.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Copernicus calling - he's not talking to you.

sorry.

this thread has become hard to follow.

 

[J Ed]

If a ukip came to your door to deliever a leaflet you'd take it or would you stop and try challenging their views?

If someone delivered a UKIP leaflet to me I wouldn't assume for a second that they were a UKIP member tbh.

 

[William of Walworth]

To be honest I am just as worried about the conspiraloon shit taffboy peddles as I am about ukip.

As I'm sure you well know yourself frogwoman, and as I said before, I'm as ready as anyone to disagree with conspiraloon shit and taffboy's definitely not been immune from that on here (generally) to say the least.

I just don't really think he's been that CT-heavy in this particular thread though. Unless I've missed some posts ... but some of his posts do include some sense IMO.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Oh, fuck off and learn to quote properly. What you write is incomprehensible, at least try to make it legible.

Please outline what you had difficulty comprehending.

 

[Awesome Wells]

If someone delivered a UKIP leaflet to me I wouldn't assume for a second that they were a UKIP member tbh.

Fair enough.

I probably would, to be honest. But it depends. If they turned up with a UKIP rosette, it'd be a safe bet. If they were my postie, it'd be a safe bet they weren't a member.

I don't really know what I'm talking about to be honest with you.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I'm going to stand corrected. This is a sample from a few weeks, but I just can't see how years of this kind of thing could have any influence on debate or perceptions at all. It's a conspiracy theory, like saying that Templars wanted to bury Diana on the moon.




ETA : the claim it is "state propaganda" is dubious, much of it is corporate though the state plays along.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

And another selection that can't possibly have any effect on perception whatsoever. Makes you wonder why they bother at all.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Give it out, but can't take it back. Standard. Run along now, prod someone else in the chest.

No, I mean I can't be arsed. I think you're an asset to the likes of UKIP. If that's chest prodding I don't give a shit - you deserve it.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

No, I mean I can't be arsed. I think you're an asset to the likes of UKIP. If that's chest prodding I don't give a shit - you deserve it.

I think you can only go so far with your case, and that constant attempts to score points among their opponents is an asset to the likes of UKIP. If you slag off chest prodders and then don't care if you chest prod it makes you a vapid hypocrite. Now, run along and tell someone else what they think and why they think it. Good luck with being a bit closer to the mark.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Spiney Norman

I'm as anti-conspiraloon as you I should think, and I've had big issues on here in the past with some of taffboy's crazier stuff in older threads.

But concerning mainstream media he's not completely wrong on this I think. I don't personally think the mainstream media brainwash people en masse, nor do I think that people are generally 'thick' enough to believe everything they're told, far from. Don't subscribe to any conspiracy either.

But surely there are plenty of people around IRL (I've encountered a fair few myself) who are quite keen (overkeen?) to believe the anecdotes they hear in the pub/from some neighbours or relatives/and yes from the media too (as well as from what they see, or think they see, themselves, in their own street or estates). People in shit jobs on shit money often want to blame an easy target, UKIP are pretty good ATM at tapping into that kind of understandable pissed off-ness. I'm not that interested in whether the Sun/Mail/Telegraph etc are orchestrating/manipulating or just reflecting/channelling peoples discontent, but its pointless to pretend the general media-dominant tone isn't playing a pretty significant part -- for a proportion of people at least.

I understand everything you and others have been saying about alienation from mainstream parties too, nor do I agree at all with shouting 'racist' at UKIP -- totally counterproductive.

I suppose the above ramble stems from my not being exactly sure what you're getting at. Can't believe there's not some overlap between yours and taffboy's positions.

Easy. Me: people derive their views about the world through lived experience and via a range of sources - the media is a tiny part of that, and its contents are more a reflection of people's views than their origins - hence the wide divergence when the media message doesn't fit.

Taffboy: MSM MSM everything's driven by the media. When I say that I don't actually mean everything's driven by the media. But when I talk about people I disagree with I always say it's because of what's in the media. But I don't mean it's all media brainwashing. Even though it is. But that's not what I actually think - in fact I don't think people are brainwashed by the media - except for when they are - which is all the time for people who disagree with me.

Seriously - have a look at his posts - it's media MSM media media. It's the only way he appears to be able to understand the world. Someone has to be pulling the strings. Of course he denies it cos when it's put like that it sounds ridiculous. But it's implicit in pretty much everything he ever posts.

I think sneering neo-fabians like him do as much to help the right as any media outlet.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think you can only go so far with your case, and that constant attempts to score points among their opponents is an asset to the likes of UKIP. If you slag off chest prodders and then don't care if you chest prod it makes you a vapid hypocrite. Now, run along and tell someone else what they think and why they think it. Good luck with being a bit closer to the mark.

Everyone knows it's true though. I can prod you in the chest cos you're a liberal liability - that's allowed. No hypocrisy.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Find a conspiraloon post from me, then outline how such a post is as concerning as fanatic neoliberal bigots polling 20+ %. Or maybe just go and have a lie down instead.

I'd rather have UKIP than the party that's boasted you, David Icke and Tony Gosling as members.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And another selection that can't possibly have any effect on perception whatsoever. Makes you wonder why they bother at all.

You've discovered that right wing tabloids print right wing bollocks. Take a bow sir, I'd never have known that without you pointing it out and I take back everything I said.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I'd rather have UKIP than the party that's boasted you, David Icke and Tony Gosling as members.

It's starting to leak out now. Perhaps you're finally starting to take on those concerns about immigration, gays, and the 26 million after your job.

Everyone knows it's true though. I can prod you in the chest cos you're a liberal liability - that's allowed. No hypocrisy.

Everyone? You did a survey? Or is this more of your psychic act?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You've discovered that right wing tabloids print right wing bollocks. Take a bow sir, I'd never have known that without you pointing it out and I take back everything I said.

That's not the point I was making, as well you know. But now you're just into base twisting and strawmen. The point you are making seems to rest on the fact that such endless propaganda has no effect, and that it's the smug work of chest-prodders to suppose otherwise. But there's more evidence that it does have an effect.

 

[SpineyNorman]

That's not the point I was making. The point you are making seems to rest on the fact that such endless propaganda has no effect, and that it's the smug work of chest-prodders to suppose otherwise. But there's more evidence that it does have an effect.

If I pretend you've persuaded me and I now agree with you about everything, even 9/11, will you STFU?

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's starting to leak out now. Perhaps you're finally starting to take on those concerns about immigration, gays, and the 26 million after your job.

Yes. There couldn't possibly be genuine concerns lurking behind the idea that there's foreigners taking jobs eh? After all, job security, wages, conditions - there's no problems with any of those. You're right about everything Mr Taffboy.

Can you tell me some more stuff about how powerful and evil the media is please?

Everyone? You did a survey? Or is this more of your psychic act?

Yes. Everyone. We have a special forum that everyone except you knows about and I asked on there.

 

[DaveCinzano]

If I pretend you've persuaded me and I now agree with you about everything, even 9/11, will you STFU?

YOU CAN NEVER SILENCE THE TRUTH

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yes. There couldn't possibly be genuine concerns lurking behind the idea that there's foreigners taking jobs eh? After all, job security, wages, conditions - there's no problems with any of those. You're right about everything Mr Taffboy.

Can you tell me some more stuff about how powerful and evil the media is please?





Yes. Everyone. We have a special forum that everyone except you knows about and I asked on there.

Do you blame pay, conditions and security on foreigners? If they are not to blame then why might people think they are?

Did I say the media were evil? No, you put words in my mouth, which is something of a habit.

Sorry I didn't know about your special forum, I assumed you were talking out your arse with fucknuts hyperbole.

Don't forget: Last bitter retort wins.

I wonder if UKIP boards suffer this kind of rancour.

 

[redsquirrel]

It's starting to leak out now. Perhaps you're finally starting to take on those concerns about immigration, gays, and the 26 million after your job.

And there it is, if you criticise the anti-UKIPists you're a racist, a bigot etc. Utterly pathetic.

 

[Joe Reilly]

its not the same really, ukip has a veneer of respectability that the BNP never managed, even at the height of their star.

It's not the same. But the formula to disable them is exactly the same as employed against the BNP. Something that may be cause for regret down the road.

The quality of all public "debate" in the context of MSM is pretty questionable, migration being no better or worse on average than general economic policy, foreign policy, social security, privatisation etc.

The essential difference is that none of the above, unlike 'what will not be discussed' are drivers for political change.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Do you blame pay, conditions and security on foreigners? If they are not to blame then why might people think they are?

Did I say the media were evil? No, you put words in my mouth, which is something of a habit.

Sorry I didn't know about your special forum, I assumed you were talking out your arse with fucknuts hyperbole.

Don't forget: Last bitter retort wins.

I wonder if UKIP boards suffer this kind of rancour.

Well, since they don't have to endure you I imagine it's somewhat more civilised.

How might people think that threats to jobs are a result of migration? Well, first - nobody sensible denies that for some sections of the workforce - low paid, unskilled manual work for a start - migration, and specifically EU migration, has resulted in fewer job opportunities and with worse conditions.

Second, people have noticed that the loss of security has come at the same time as increased movement within Europe. They don't need the Daily Mail to tell them that - they can see it with their own eyes. I think this is because they're both products of neoliberalism. But it's perfectly possible for someone to erroneously think there's a line of causation running from one to the other, just as you erroneously think the media cause people to be wacists. They don't need the papers to tell them that. People can reach conclusions all of their own. As Joe Reilly says, what's not being talked about in the media better accounts for that than right wing tabloids being right wing.

You fucking prole hating green party loon.

 

[treelover]

Newsnight just had a good package on why L/P voters in Rotherham are shifting to UKIP, interviewing ex miners, etc

last but one item, I think.

 

[treelover]

Labour and Tory polling is showing that attacks claiming Nigel Farage is a racist have backfired since voters do not regard him as such and see the assaults as a sign that the political establishment are ganging up to undermine him.
The apparent backlash is coming to both parties from telephone polling and focus groups, which say that the attacks have raised Farage's profile and confirmed him as the anti-establishment candidate. It does not tally with published opinion polls that show the Ukip lead in the European elections narrowing slightly.
One source said: "Calling people names does not work. It confirms the old politics."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ory-poll-ratings-farage-attacks?commentpage=6

Surprised?

non...

 

[SpackleFrog]

Surprised?

non...

The Old Politics?

 

[Dogsauce]

Isn't it presumptuous to assume UKIP are drawing significantly large support from marginalised workers, and also that those influenced by media are somehow ill-educated or naive? It just seems like the same arguments as when people defended BNP voters from placard-waving trots on grounds that these were marginalised people nobody else was speaking for, but I don't see evidence of it being the same demographic. I know there is some support from whatever letters people who measure these things use to designate people at the bottom, but a lot from further up the scale too.

A lot of UKIP support comes from reasonably well-off retired people- look at the rallies/meetings on the TV.

These aren't people whose jobs are threatened by migration, or people who don't usually vote because the system leaves them behind. Some are old-school Tories unhappy with social changes, unhappy with the flimsy PR personas heading up the main parties. Within the activists these aren't struggling outsiders and malcontents.

It's people like my uncle (retired further ed lecturer, good pension, UKIP member) who comes out with stuff about Britain being lost to Sharia law - where does someone living in a nice suburb of Northampton come up with stuff like that? What 'experience' brings forward such opinions so far from the truth? Maybe years of reading Mad Mel in the Mail has hammered this thought in?