Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[J Ed]

Fascism is all about fetishising military uniforms and worshipping wars and death.

Plenty of embarassing uniform fetishism on the left

 

[nino_savatte]

Plenty of embarassing uniform fetishism on the left

I should have left out the word "uniforms".

 

[Sasaferrato]

Fascism is all about fetishising military uniforms and worshipping wars and death.

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

 

[Favelado]

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

Yeah, well Kim Jong-Il's penchant for onesies is pretty much the norm in Britain now so we can't really criticise.

 

[nino_savatte]

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

See the above post (#632).

 

[butchersapron]

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

What, in an...army?

 

[thedockerslad]

What do you mean by "real elections - by-elections and general elections?
If so, that's not a sensible way of looking at things, especially given that UKIP's base are a fuckload more civic-minded and likely to be decent ward councillors than the BNP turned out to be.
If they do manage to establish a decent base in local authorities, and actually hold wards through decent surgery work, then they build a foundation (which the BNP failed to do except in a couple of locales) for contesting constituencies a bit further down the line, and although the 'Kippers have skeletons in their closets, there's not likely to be the same degree of rancidity to their corpses, as the ones the BNP had and have.

I'm going to disagree with you on this, and the reason is I don't believe that ukip pose the same kind of potential threat that the bnp do/did. As you mention there may be skeletons in cupboards but I guess they are likely to be posh people pretending otherwise. They are basically the old centre right of the conservative party who feel left behind by Cameron and the coalition.

 

[Favelado]

What, in an...army?

Is the public subject to a dress-code in North Korea to some extent?

 

[J Ed]

Is the public subject to a dress-code in North Korea to some extent?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-koreas-28-approved-haircuts-1735221

 

[Favelado]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-koreas-28-approved-haircuts-1735221

It says 28 but it's about 4 really.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm going to disagree with you on this, and the reason is I don't believe that ukip pose the same kind of potential threat that the bnp do/did. As you mention there may be skeletons in cupboards but I guess they are likely to be posh people pretending otherwise.
They are basically the old centre right of the conservative party who feel left behind by Cameron and the coalition.

It depends what you mean by "potential threat". There isn't the same existential threat to order that the BNP carried, but in terms of the "turn to the right", and the further legitimation of far-right politics that the BNP kickstarted, and the effect of that in pushing the "political centre" rightward, the threat is still there.
As for them being "the old centre right", I'd say they're more like an amalgam of The League of Empire Loyalists, The Monday Club and The Federation of Conservative Students - unabashedly hard right and proud of it.

 

[butchersapron]

Is the public subject to a dress-code in North Korea to some extent?

The public faced the fantastic Let's trim our hair in accordance with the socialist lifestyle campaign a few years back and i think afew others are forcibly imposed rather than being popular.

 

[Favelado]

The public faced the fantastic Let's trim our hair in accordance with the socialist lifestyle campaign a few years back and i think afew others are forcibly imposed rather than being popular.

I can't remember where I read it but I think denim of any colour might be a no-no. I heard of rebellious youth wearing it but at the risk of a month in an internment camp. Something along those lines.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Plenty of embarassing uniform fetishism on the left

Donkey jackets ftw!

 

[ViolentPanda]

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

They haven't quite managed, in 60 years, to para-militarise the working public in the same way the fascist regimes in Germany and Italy managed in less than a decade.

 

[thedockerslad]

It depends what you mean by "potential threat". There isn't the same existential threat to order that the BNP carried, but in terms of the "turn to the right", and the further legitimation of far-right politics that the BNP kickstarted, and the effect of that in pushing the "political centre" rightward, the threat is still there.
As for them being "the old centre right", I'd say they're more like an amalgam of The League of Empire Loyalists, The Monday Club and The Federation of Conservative Students - unabashedly hard right and proud of it.

The BNP are a fascist party just like the NF were. They have a particular traceable trajectory. UKIP imo are not a fascist party. Yes they represent a certain right wing element of the Tories, and there may well be some fascists in their party, but that doesn't make them a fascist party.

Personally if we want to talk about how the old political centre was pushed rightwards I think we have to look to Blair (save Kinnock for later). One of his first calls after being elected was to meet Thatcher. He did nothing to reverse the terrible injustices inflicted on the working class. That fucking shower layed the foundations for what is happening now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The BNP are a fascist party just like the NF were. They have a particular traceable trajectory. UKIP imo are not a fascist party. Yes they represent a certain right wing element of the Tories, and there may well be some fascists in their party, but that doesn't make them a fascist party.

I haven't said, anywhere on this or any other thread, that they're a fascist party. I haven't implied it, either. I even said that there isn't the same existential threat from UKIP that there was from the BNP.

Replies are always better when you read what's been written rather than slotting in suppositions.

Personally if we want to talk about how the old political centre was pushed rightwards I think we have to look to Blair (save Kinnock for later). One of his first calls after being elected was to meet Thatcher. He did nothing to reverse the terrible injustices inflicted on the working class. That fucking shower layed the foundations for what is happening now.

Well, Thatcher started it all really in '79 by snatching the NF's voter base with her anti-immigrant rhetoric. Set an example for Blair of how to do it, w/r/t anti-immigrant sentiment, although Blair was more subtle. Frankly though, after Smith died and "new Labour" started embracing neoliberalism wholesale (arguably, Smith's dalliance with neoliberalism was piecemeal), any leftism in the party's politics was purely rhetorical anyway, and new Labour's politics were essentially the Labour-right veering further rightward as circumstances allowed.

 

[thedockerslad]

I haven't said, anywhere on this or any other thread, that they're a fascist party. I haven't implied it, either. I even said that there isn't the same existential threat from UKIP that there was from the BNP.

Replies are always better when you read what's been written rather than slotting in suppositions. [


Well, Thatcher started it all really in '79 by snatching the NF's voter base with her anti-immigrant rhetoric. Set an example for Blair of how to do it, w/r/t anti-immigrant sentiment, although Blair was more subtle. Frankly though, after Smith died and "new Labour" started embracing neoliberalism wholesale (arguably, Smith's dalliance with neoliberalism was piecemeal), any leftism in the party's politics was purely rhetorical anyway, and new Labour's politics were essentially the Labour-right veering further rightward as circumstances allowed.

Wow that was a really defensive post. I was just trying to clarify my position on this.

My position is I couldn't care less about these politicians or their shenanigans.

 

[coley]

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

In the hat stakes,the commies always lose

 

[Corax]

Is it simply the hypocrisy of Urban, in that if it is 'left', no matter how revolting it is OK, whilst if it is 'right' it is not?

And Communism? North Korea for example? Great fondness for uniforms there.

Ignoring the highly debatable notion of N Korea as communist for a second - did you know your rhetorical question in the first quote was cobblers, or do you genuinely think that Urban is full of cheerleaders for Kim Jong Un?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Ignoring the highly debatable notion of N Korea as communist for a second - did you know your rhetorical question in the first quote was cobblers, or do you genuinely think that Urban is full of cheerleaders for Kim Jong Un?

TBH, at times it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Sasaferrato]

In the hat stakes,the commies always lose

Have you seen the width of those dress hats?

 

[Sasaferrato]

They haven't quite managed, in 60 years, to para-militarise the working public in the same way the fascist regimes in Germany and Italy managed in less than a decade.

Or, at least ostensibly, the communist regimes of the Soviet satellites?

 

[Sasaferrato]

I haven't said, anywhere on this or any other thread, that they're a fascist party. I haven't implied it, either. I even said that there isn't the same existential threat from UKIP that there was from the BNP.

Replies are always better when you read what's been written rather than slotting in suppositions.



Well, Thatcher started it all really in '79 by snatching the NF's voter base with her anti-immigrant rhetoric. Set an example for Blair of how to do it, w/r/t anti-immigrant sentiment, although Blair was more subtle. Frankly though, after Smith died and "new Labour" started embracing neoliberalism wholesale (arguably, Smith's dalliance with neoliberalism was piecemeal), any leftism in the party's politics was purely rhetorical anyway, and new Labour's politics were essentially the Labour-right veering further rightward as circumstances allowed.

UKIP's position (which incidentally, I support - at a time of high unemployment, the last thing required is more candidates for each job) on immigration is bang on, for the time that we in. At another time... who knows.

 

[Corax]

TBH, at times it wouldn't surprise me.

Didn't really answer the question there Sass...

 

[dominion]

They haven't quite managed, in 60 years, to para-militarise the working public in the same way the fascist regimes in Germany and Italy managed in less than a decade. ​

​

No they just starve the poor buggers to death.​

 

[J Ed]

BNP to use entryism in UKIP

http://www.leftfutures.org/2013/05/ukip-faces-bnp-entrism/

 

[coley]

Have you seen the width of those dress hats?

Aye you could stage ' come dancing' on the top of some of them

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Can you explain why being a Communist is OK, whilst being a Fascist is not?

Both are vile totalitarian philosophies, both have murdered and tortured vast numbers of the unfortunate people who existed under these regimes.

Is it simply the hypocrisy of Urban, in that if it is 'left', no matter how revolting it is OK, whilst if it is 'right' it is not?

Communism doesn't have inequality, brutality, racism, authoritarianism and unquestionable devotion to leaders built into its founding principles. Fascism does. Communist states have obviously frequently succumbed to these dispicable realities, through corrupt leaders and failed policies, granted. But the ideals on which the theory is based are sound.

Its a cop out to say it, but it just seems to me communism just hasn't been done properly yet.

I will add, I'm no expert in either political thought or history. My arguments could probably easily be torn apart by anyone with a bit more knowledge. I never claim to be a political anorak or theory expert but the basics aren't that hard to understand, and I believe that the principles of commie theory are sound and fair, whilst fascism is dangerous and hateful by nature and the reality has shown this to be undoubtedly true. Fascism has "worked" and it was shit. Communism has never been implemented properly.

 

[coley]

Communism doesn't have inequality, brutality, racism, authoritarianism and unquestionable devotion to leaders built into its founding principles. Fascism does. Communist states have obviously frequently succumbed to these dispicable realities, through corrupt leaders and failed policies, granted. But the ideals on which the theory is based are sound.

Its a cop out to say it, but it just seems to me communism just hasn't been done properly yet.

I will add, I'm no expert in either political thought or history. My arguments could probably easily be torn apart by anyone with a bit more knowledge. I never claim to be a political anorak or theory expert but the basics aren't that hard to understand, and I believe that the principles of commie theory are sound and fair, whilst fascism is dangerous and hateful by nature and the reality has shown this to be undoubtedly true. Fascism has "worked" and it was shit. Communism has never been implemented properly.

I would agree with all the above, but communism is great in theory but doesn't take into consideration basic human nature.Even socialism which had a brief flowering died just as soon as the establishment worked out the minimum 'bread and circuses' required to keep the majority of the masses content.