Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Tribune article on immigration etc

Pigeon said:
Actually, Mystic Meg, I fail to see how you could possibly be in a position to pass judgment on what I "want" from my commentary on what we've "got".

But if you want to believe 3rd World poverty is All My Fault, fine; hope it makes life easier.

In the meantime, you can carry on disappearing up yer own virtual rectum by posting sneery guff about LIBERAL SUPREMACISTS who don't trust the masses, while passing judgement on those members of the international "masses" who try to make informed decisions about the best course of action for their families and themselves in the here and now.

You havent read what i said have you? I dont blame anyone for wanting to improve the life chances and that of their families.... And no i dont think poverty is ALL your fault,but i do think your arguements are Right wing shit when it comes to Immigration.
 
Pigeon said:
From the same piece:

A major reason for the declining health services in poor countries has been the Structural Adjustment Programmes imposed by richer countries and international institutions, which have contributed to the brain drain, so to speak. The small amount that the rich countries do allow the poor to spend on health is now lost to the already rich and the poor have to bear the burden


Yeah Pigeon OK we agree the Richer countries govts are at least partially to blame for worldwide injustice.....But does that mean you still want to take Doctors from Poorer countries?
 
Originally Posted by tbaldwin
But the fact is that people sending money home to families in Poland or India or Cuba creates more problems than it solves....

So this is why India has a 8% growth rate and (at this rate) superceed the USA within 50 years??

As one of those immigrants from India who's family sent money to 1/cloth 2/house 3/educate our kids there.

Now we have TWO doctors ONE agriculturalist and THREE accountants and ONE Sofware engineer in our family in India when thirty five years ago they were illiterate farmers.

You talk shite tbalwin (and deep down you know it) Dick.
 
iROBOT said:
So this is why India has a 8% growth rate and (at this rate) superceed the USA within 50 years??

As one of those immigrants from India who's family sent money to 1/cloth 2/house 3/educate our kids there.

Now we have TWO doctors ONE agriculturalist and THREE accountants and ONE Sofware engineer in our family in India when thirty five years ago they were illiterate farmers.

You talk shite tbalwin (and deep down you know it) Dick.


Yeah course silly me ........Everythings booming in India now??? Its a kind of Utopian country and its all down to Middle Class Indians sending money home....................

The truth is that millions of people in India are piss poor.
Whethers it Bhopal or taking their skilled workers the West has exploited India and whether you and a few Indians have done well out of it,is not the whole question..
 
Pigeon said:
From the same piece:

A major reason for the declining health services in poor countries has been the Structural Adjustment Programmes imposed by richer countries and international institutions, which have contributed to the brain drain, so to speak. The small amount that the rich countries do allow the poor to spend on health is now lost to the already rich and the poor have to bear the burden

That still doesn't mean it is okay for our country to poach medical staff willy-nilly from those countries which can ill-afford to lose them.

Or to postpone behaving responsibly on this issue now until some unspecified future date, when more wide-ranging inequalities between countries can be resolved.

If we need medical staff from abroad, why can't we make a point of engaging with those countries who are able to manage the export of health workers to their own advantage?
 
Pigeon said:
There was a report a couple of weeks back indicating that the amount of money sent back to developing countries by migrant workers now massively outstrips governments' aid budgets.

But that'll be complicating the issue with messy "facts", so probably best to leave well alone.:rolleyes:
thast usefull to individuals but not society as a whole .. southern italy or wherever are still fucked as societies cos of both poverty and immigration
 
sorry for cnp and for copying whole post from another thread!!


http://society.guardian.co.uk/commen...485880,00.html


The NHS goes global

Poaching doctors and nurses from poorer countries will have dire consequences, says Malcolm Dean

Wednesday May 18, 2005
The Guardian


The numbers are hard to believe. Six years on from the health service's ethical recruitment code, more than a third of new nurses (11,500) and two-thirds of new doctors recruited last year were overseas trained, many of them poached from poor states. Cynics may dismiss the new joint campaign by the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing to put more pressure on ministers to plug the brain drain from developing states. They may see it as an act of professional self-protection. But they are wrong.
They should heed instead the appeals for help at last year's RCN conference from the leader of the South African nurses association, who was still watching 300 nurses a month moving overseas, despite the appeals from Nelson Mandela to the developed world to stop it. Some 6,000 nurses in four years came to the UK alone.

Or they could talk to the head of Kenya's nursing union, who complained even earlier about their most experienced nurses being poached by British private nursing agencies.

The government has committed the UK to a code of ethics that bans recruitment from developing countries except where there is an inter-governmental agreement permitting it. Yet of the top 20 countries from which the UK recruits, 12 are on a banned list.

Some 7,000 South African doctors were already on the permanent register of the UK's General Medical Council by 2003 - equivalent to half the number working in South African public hospitals - when Britain launched its plan for private independent treatment centres that were required to recruit from overseas. The South African Medical Association responded: "You are increasing your ability to poach by opening these centres that you cannot man yourself." And, indeed, one of the half-dozen overseas corporates that won a contract was South African.

Ghana is in even more serious trouble, with just 1,500 doctors for a population of 20m. Two-thirds of its young doctors leave the country within three years.

A new report, commissioned by the RCN from James Buchan, of Queen Margaret University College, Edinburgh, shows the startling rise in non-EU overseas trained nurses registering in the UK in the last decade. It grew from fewer than 2,000 in 1994/95 up to 15,000 in 2001/02. In the last five years, more than 50,000 overseas trained nurses have been registered here - most from "banned" African countries.

The chairman of the BMA, James Johnson, was right to talk of the "devastating consequences" on developing nations of the failure of developed states to train sufficient medical staff.

A report produced by Medact, the international health charity, estimated the cost to Ghana alone from the loss of medical staff came to £100m. The gain to developed states was much bigger. It costs almost £250,000 to train a doctor in the UK.

True, the picture is more complicated than some statistics suggest. Three countries - the Philippines, India and Indonesia - have an intergovernmental agreement with the UK because of surplus numbers. The Philippines deliberately produces a surplus to attract remittances from abroad. Nurse numbers from there peaked at 7,000 in 2001-02 but have fallen since. Remittances (from all sectors) are now providing developing states with almost twice as much as international aid, more than £75bn a year.

Yet, as the UN Commission on Migration has warned, too high an expectation has been placed on these financial flows. Socially, they break up families while economically, they deprive the developing countries of entrepreneurial talent.

Then, as Hilary Benn, the international development secretary, wrote in our letter columns last week, the shortage of health workers in developing states has other causes apart from migration. He listed inadequate investment in health services, poor working conditions, poor pay and lack of career development. He pointed to the UK's aid programme that is helping to meet these shortfalls - more than £560m to Africa in the last five years. But divided equally, that would come to little more than £2m for each African country each year.

The current code was tightened in 2004. A loophole under which overseas staff could be taken on by the NHS as locums on renewable short-term contracts that could be extended indefinitely was blocked. But it should be tightened further. There is nothing to stop private hospitals, private nursing homes or 250 private recruitment agencies from poaching.

What is needed even more urgently is a debate about how developed nations which use overseas trained staff should compensate the developing nations for their loss. Some 22 Commonwealth countries have signed up to such an approach, but not the UK. It would not just be ethical but in our own self-interest. An RCN survey of overseas nurses working in London, published today, suggests four in 10 are considering a move to another country that offers better pay, such as the US. As the RCN asserts, the NHS expansion is "being built on sand".
 
Furtwangler said:
If we need medical staff from abroad, why can't we make a point of engaging with those countries who are able to manage the export of health workers to their own advantage?

I agree. Or, for that matter, provide a decent living wage for people training to be health workers here.
 
tbaldwin said:
.....But does that mean you still want to take Doctors from Poorer countries?


Yes, I'm perfectly happy with the situation: that's why I described it as "grotesque and obscene", obviously.
 
tbaldwin said:
Yeah course silly me ........Everythings booming in India now??? Its a kind of Utopian country and its all down to Middle Class Indians sending money home....................

The truth is that millions of people in India are piss poor.
Whethers it Bhopal or taking their skilled workers the West has exploited India and whether you and a few Indians have done well out of it,is not the whole question..
In the last ten years the "middle classes" that were (in part) created by the money being sent from the West, has risen to 300 million (this is USA dollor middle classes) that is more then the entire population of the USA. Plus you seem to think that it ALL ONE WAY...HELLO!!!!

It's estimated that by 2050 India will over take the USA in terms of GDP....In the last few years India has progressed more then almost 200 years of British rule.

Immigration to the west is classic redistribution of world wealth.

End of...
 
But what's India's immigration policy like?

* Indian Deputy Prime Minister L.K. Advani has urged Bangladesh to take back illegal immigrants numbering about 15 million from India. Advani is in the forefront for the deportation drive.

* The Indian government aims to complete fencing the border with Bangladesh by 2007.

“The massive illegal immigration poses a grave danger to our security, social harmony and economic well-being. We have compromised on all these aspects so far. It is time to say enough is enough.” Recommendation of National Security System, Feb. 2001.

http://www.saag.org/papers7/paper632.html

So there are members of the Indian government who have advocated pretty hardcore policies, some of which would not look out of place on a far-right manifesto, eg deporting millions of people against their will.
 
iROBOT said:
Immigration to the west is classic redistribution of world wealth.

End of...

What a fantastic arguement............................Do you really believe shit like that.....India is going to get lots of Jam tommorow eh......Wonder how far it will spread?
Education is what helps countries develop not exporting people......
 
tbaldwin said:
What a fantastic arguement............................Do you really believe shit like that.....India is going to get lots of Jam tommorow eh......Wonder how far it will spread?
Education is what helps countries develop not exporting people......

Even when the best place for them to get that education happens to be "abroad"?
 
ViolentPanda said:
Even when the best place for them to get that education happens to be "abroad"?


Well being educated abroad maybe OK for the ruling classes but for most people education is going to be based in their own country and that is where the money should be..

Providing aid and taking skilled workers from poorer countries seems like some kind of sick joke...

Poorer countries need aid to develop and keep the skilled workers they need.
 
Back
Top Bottom