Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

You seem to want there to be a definitive answer to the question 'Does gender trump sex, or does sex trump gender?' I don't see why there necessarily needs to be an answer to that question.

Sex is material biological reality, gender is cultural stereotypes. If we can recognise this, why can we not recognise 'trans women' are not women, but afford them respect and compassion as 'trans women'?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Are you suggesting that everyone who is intersex is infertile? Because that just isnt true.

If someone is fertile, that's a pretty solid determinant they are either male or female. We don't have a 'third sex'.

 

[elbows]

No, and neither did 'classic liberals'. My political compass is JS Mill, who was not just years ahead of his own time, but is years ahead of now, with his thoughts on democracy, women's rights and free speech.

Please advise me of anything I have ever said that is 'bigoted'.

Given one of the foundations of your wisdom involves crudely shoehorning autogynephilia into areas it doesnt belong, you'll always be a bigot to me.

 

[elbows]

If someone is fertile, that's a pretty solid determinant they are either male or female. We don't have a 'third sex'.

More fuckwittery, divorced from the reality and the conditions some people have. Useless.

 

[Pickman's model]

is this a joke??

perhaps it might be easier to turn it round and advise my of anything they've said which isn't bigoted.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

As far as I can see with this, transrights activists in the last few years have decided that this is how it should be, and then rather than consulting with the feminist movement to discuss their opinions on it and seek some form of consensus on it, have sought to force this change upon them via a campaign of hounding anyone who dissents from their viewpoint on it.

This is true. I have been attacked for even suggesting we recognise differences so we can build coalition.

This has been compounded by the identity politics heirachy bollocks which automatically places trans women as being less privileged than CIS women, and therefore that their voices should be heard louder and feminist campaigns should be diverted to support the transrights campaigns rather than say focusing on reproductive rights issues.

Problem is so much feminist discourse is being diverted to trans issues.

So effectively transrights activists (at least a vocal subsection of them) want feminist groups not only to accept that trans women should be included in their groups and campaigns, but then want to subvert those campaigns for their own aims. Given this, I'd be unsurprised if some long running feminist campaign groups have told them to get to fuck.

See for example what has happened with Lily Madigan, who is being used by one side and subjected to relentless attack by the other.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

More fuckwittery, divorced from the reality and the conditions some people have. Useless.

Please support your claim.

 

[pengaleng]

Please support your claim.

fuck off, dave

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sex is material biological reality, gender is cultural stereotypes. If we can recognise this, why can we not recognise 'trans women' are not women, but afford them respect and compassion as 'trans women'?

gender is no less a material reality than sex. Mind is a material reality. Your categories don't work the way you think they do.

As for affording people respect and compassion, you have failed that test pretty spectacularly.

 

[elbows]

Please support your claim.

Which bit?

There are plenty of people with lives that are not served by your crude take on things, that should be obvious. That it isnt obvious to you at this time makes me think I have zero chance convincing you otherwise, but just for the sake of providing an example here is something.

intersexed and10 weeks pregnant, feeling scared and alone :( - Netmums Chat

 

[8ball]

gender is no less a material reality than sex.

Hmmm...

 

[MochaSoul]

gender is no less a material reality than sex.

Seriously?

 

[MochaSoul]

Sex is material biological reality, gender is cultural stereotypes. If we can recognise this, why can we not recognise 'trans women' are not women, but afford them respect and compassion as 'trans women'?

As for affording people respect and compassion, you have failed that test pretty spectacularly.

Pretend the sentence was uttered by someone other than Miranda, what do you have against its premise?

 

[Pickman's model]

gender is no less a material reality than sex.

The effete liberal always makes one fatal error. Tell you what, point me to a picture of gender.

 

[Sea Star]

why does everyone keep capitalising "cis" so it reads 'CIS' as if it's an acronym. I notice it's something mostly done by people taking an anti-trans viewpoint. Is there an agenda attached to this - like using "transwomen" instead "trans women"?

 

[MochaSoul]

Oh gawd!

 

[TopCat]

why does everyone keep capitalising "cis" so it reads 'CIS' as if it's an acronym. I notice it's something mostly done by people taking an anti-trans viewpoint. Is there an agenda attached to this - like using "transwomen" instead "trans women"?

Yeah right. Please do tell us how to correctly use the label you have dumped on us.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

gender is no less a material reality than sex. Mind is a material reality. Your categories don't work the way you think they do.

As for affording people respect and compassion, you have failed that test pretty spectacularly.

On the contrary, biological sex exists independent of human existence, gender exists only because human beings create it in their society.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

fuck off, dave

..

 

[LDC]

Is there an agenda attached to this - like using "transwomen" instead "trans women"?

When this level of pedantry starts to be an issue I think we've taken a wrong turn somewhere. FFS.

 

[Pickman's model]

On the contrary, biological sex exists independent of human existence, gender exists only because human beings create it in their society.

It seems there are many animals other than humans which don't adhere to a gender binary. You see you use mill as your political guide. Do you rely on nineteenth century science too?

 

[Pickman's model]

When this level of pedantry starts to be an issue I think we've taken a wrong turn somewhere. FFS.

Beware the wrath of the ultrapedant

 

[free spirit]

why does everyone keep capitalising "cis" so it reads 'CIS' as if it's an acronym. I notice it's something mostly done by people taking an anti-trans viewpoint. Is there an agenda attached to this - like using "transwomen" instead "trans women"?

In my case you can put it down to me rarely if ever using the term and forgetting how it's supposed to be written.

ps I've not got an anti-trans viewpoint, I've got a viewpoint that differs from that of a bunch of self appointed transrights activists, most of whom aren't trans.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Which bit?

There are plenty of people with lives that are not served by your crude take on things, that should be obvious. That it isnt obvious to you at this time makes me think I have zero chance convincing you otherwise, but just for the sake of providing an example here is something.

intersexed and10 weeks pregnant, feeling scared and alone :( - Netmums Chat

Like one of the replies says, 'this is a very complex situation' and with respect to the OP, this appears to be pretty much a singular outlier and these characteristics are not shared by 'trans women'. How does this support any argument that 'trans women' are female, or even women?

 

[Pickman's model]

In my case you can put it down to me rarely if ever using the term and forgetting how it's supposed to be written.

ps I've not got an anti-trans viewpoint, I've got a viewpoint that differs from that of a bunch of self appointed transrights activists, most of whom aren't trans.

Aren't all activists self appointed?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

It seems there are many animals other than humans which don't adhere to a gender binary. You see you use mill as your political guide. Do you rely on nineteenth century science too?

His politics on free speech and women's rights are still light years ahead of much on this board.

There's no 'science' to show 'trans women are women'.

 

[free spirit]

Aren't all activists self appointed?

no. Some are elected to their role.

 

[Pickman's model]

no. Some are elected to their role.

Against their will no doubt

 

[Pickman's model]

His politics on free speech and women's rights are still light years ahead of much on this board.

There's no 'science' to show 'trans women are women'.

Yeh yardbot. Don't mention the animals!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Pretend the sentence was uttered by someone other than Miranda, what do you have against its premise?

#wrongkindatrans

Seriously though, being attacked like this by a bunch of blokes who profess to be trans allies really makes me worry; their compassion for trans people seems to be a veil for their moral disgust.