Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[littlebabyjesus]

That's misrepresenting a lot of us who are sensitive to the various ways the GRA as people like you mean for it to go ahead will impact on women.

It's not misrepresenting the people Sea Star campaigns against, which is the people I was talking about. People like Julia Long, Maria Mac, Dr RadFem, Miranda Yardley, and others.

 

[8ball]

Am I cisgender?

The stuff about identity is interesting. I think if I was (for the sake of argument) transformed into a person with a female body, I expect I'd be a very 'blokey' one, even if no dysphoria resulted. The things you like, the stuff you wear, all of that subconscious "you can colour, but only within the lines" stuff...

Maybe that's what gender identity is to those of us with no strong "internal feeling" about it. Or part of it, anyway.

 

[MochaSoul]

The stuff about identity is interesting. I think if I was (for the sake of argument) transformed into a person with a female body, I expect I'd be a very 'blokey' one, even if no dysphoria resulted. The things you like, the stuff you wear, all of that subconscious "you can colour, but only within the lines" stuff...

Maybe that's what gender identity is to those of us with no strong "internal feeling" about it. Or part of it, anyway.

The other day I said this:

Beauvoir said "One becomes woman". I see it more as one comes to terms with being [seen, treated as, compelled to act as] as woman. Little things, big things, bigger things that shout at one "lesser", "confined to", "not allowed", "liable to", "unable to", etc, etc, not including periods and the pains that accompany them, worry about pregnancy, fear of infertility, motherhood, etc, etc, etc. Whereas before my conversation with my friend (which I have described here earlier) I welcomed the whole spanner in the works of patriarchy that the very existence of transgender people represent, I'm not so sure now. Now I fear, the very principles behind being a transgender woman, passing as woman, are a threat to an awful lot of the gains so many before me struggled for me to, today, be able to say I have come to terms with being woman within and in spite of the patriarchal world I find myself in. Not by virtue of them being transgender women. By virtue of the claims on gender they make.

I only found this article yesterday but I think she says it a lot better than I. To me being a woman is not like having a soul or the spirit of a woman. It's been a long and drawn out process of trying to square how I see myself to how society does. My resistance to this whole "I feel like a woman" that goes on in this debate is to do with all of that.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I've heard loads of criticisms on topics around this issue, I've just literally never heard this issue with whether it's transwomen or trans women.

Oh this has been an issue for ages, 'trans women' implies they are a variant of 'women' because 'trans' is an adjective; 'transwomen' implies they are something else. This is quite a big area of contention.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I wasn't attacking you over the Daily Mail, just your comrades. I was attacking you for cosying up to a Tory misogynist. I think it reveals you as part of a movement that has lost all semblance of objectivity, that is reduced to conspiracy theories and crackpot 1970s sexology, and that is largely motivated by bigotry. That's why when other feminists are out campaigning to save women's services from closure you're forming alliances with the people doing it. You are a danger to working class women, cis, trans or otherwise.

Again, please show me one thing I have ever said that is 'bigoted' or 'hateful'. I notice your big long ad hominem in the absence of a substantive argument.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

would you recognise an intersex person as a man even if they had female reproductive capacity?

Sex class is based upon reproduction, again please find me one single independently verified instance of a recorded conception and gestation by someone with a male reproductive system.

It's a pretty simple question, a yes/no answer is fine.

It's funny I get accused of black and white thinking yet here you are presenting a yes or no answer, when you beg the question...

 

[Athos]

A crucial point? FFS, exactly what I mean, get some perspective on this, and where this issue sits among the problems in the world today.

It's far from trivial; the policing of language is an important part of much of TRA strategy.

Clearly, it's not easy to bring trans women within the definition of 'woman' as the vast majority of people currently understand that term. So the focus becomes expanding the meaning of the word 'woman' to include trans women. Because words have a two way relationship with reality; if enough people use 'woman' to include trans women, then trans women become women (literally, by (a change in) definition).

And, there's two ways of bringing that about: arguing why the definition should be expanded; or, hectoring, bullying or guilting people with accusations of bigotry if they don't comply (which, also, conveniently excuses a failure to engage with the substance of opponents' positions).

The most ridiculous thing about Sea Star's excitement about the use of the word is that, on this thread, it's been used most consistently by smokedout (whom I think we'd all accept isn't a TERF!), and at least once by a trans woman to describe herself!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

this thread (check the top posters on the thread), multiple facebook interactions, observation of multiple trans rights related protests and campaigns, seeing how it's worked in the green party / young greens etc.

Here's an example of the sort of thing that 'trans allies' say to transsexuals they disagree with.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

'Guys' has been gender-negotiable since the 1990s ime.

More like the '60s.

 

[pengaleng]

Again, please show me one thing I have ever said that is 'bigoted' or 'hateful'. I notice your big long ad hominem in the absence of a substantive argument.

explain what you meant by 'di...' first

but you wont because you are weak.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Every time an institution becomes trans-inclusive, this nexus of dubious forces cranks into gear to personally vilify the trans people involved. Given that these are the current places of fracture of the ongoing quest for trans rights, what exactly do you expect trans rights campaigners to focus on instead?

Actually that's not true; it's not about vilifying trans people, it is instead about preserving existing protections and the rights to privacy of women and girls.

 

[pengaleng]

I think you waive yer right to privacy in public spaces. sweat.

dont go outside if yer that scared.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

It's not misrepresenting the people Sea Star campaigns against, which is the people I was talking about. People like Julia Long, Maria Mac, Dr RadFem, Miranda Yardley, and others.

SS doesn't 'campaign' against anyone, rather SS whines away on Twitter attacking anyone he disagrees with. I remember a couple of years ago how SS instigated a pile-on against a young trans 'sex worker', which caused that person a lot of distress.

Are you trans yourself? It would be useful to know, so I know whether you're a non-trans individual picking sides in a dispute between trans people.

 

[pengaleng]

no one gives a fuck about who did what when, you child.

theres no teacher to tell in the real world so you just whine about people on forums, it's pathetic, do your own self.

 

[pengaleng]

Are you trans yourself? It would be useful to know, so I know whether you're a non-trans individual picking sides in a dispute between trans people.

yer a fucking waste asking this shit.

shows your hand.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I don't have a problem with you being attacked. If you were a racist bitch I'd be attacking you. What I'd also be doing is arguing against your arguments even if I thought you were beyond contempt.

Yet for some reason I get a bunch of dudes being mean!

 

[pengaleng]

Yet for some reason I get a bunch of dudes being mean!

mnerrrrrr mi such a victimmmmm i dunno why people ar reacting to me being a total cunt

call the fucking wahmbulance

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I think you waive yer right to privacy in public spaces. sweat.

dont go outside if yer that scared.

no one gives a fuck about who did what when, you child.

theres no teacher to tell in the real world so you just whine about people on forums, it's pathetic, do your own self.

yer a fucking waste asking this shit.

shows your hand.

This is what presently passes for discourse from transgenderists and is illustrative of exactly why some many women (and men) of all political colours object to what is happening.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

mnerrrrrr mi such a victimmmmm i dunno why people ar reacting to me being a total cunt

call the fucking wahmbulance

You boys really are a riot.

 

[pengaleng]

This is what presently passes for discourse from transgenderists and is illustrative of exactly why some many women (and men) of all political colours object to what is happening.

no it isnt lol it's being called a fucking cunt for being a cunt, dont dress it up

 

[TopCat]

mnerrrrrr mi such a victimmmmm i dunno why people ar reacting to me being a total cunt

call the fucking wahmbulance

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

 

[pengaleng]

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

were you born addicted to smack? foetal alcohol syndrome? abused? an abortion that crawled out the bin?

 

[free spirit]

You may not have noticed, but there's been something of a campaign going on in the last couple of years to prevent a new Gender Recognition Act, a campaign that appears to have been successful, and involves many of those 'long standing feminist and gay rights campaigners' cosying up to proven anti-gay rights, anti-women's rights right wingers like David Davies. Every time an institution becomes trans-inclusive, this nexus of dubious forces cranks into gear to personally vilify the trans people involved. Given that these are the current places of fracture of the ongoing quest for trans rights, what exactly do you expect trans rights campaigners to focus on instead?

I'd suggest they'd be best to focus on positively campaigning to gain support for the changes they wish to see in the legislation.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

The most ridiculous thing about Sea Star's excitement about the use of the word is that, on this thread, it's been used most consistently by smokedout (whom I think we'd all accept isn't a TERF!), and at least once by a trans woman to describe herself!

Trans people are not a monolith(!)

 

[Athos]

You boys really are a riot.

You're just being a dick, now. Pack it in.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You're just being a dick, now. Pack it in.

If the response I get to making an argument is abuse, I'll respond to it how I like, thank you very much.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

SS doesn't 'campaign' against anyone, rather SS whines away on Twitter attacking anyone he disagrees with. I remember a couple of years ago how SS instigated a pile-on against a young trans 'sex worker', which caused that person a lot of distress.

Given your reaction to Sea Star when she made accusations against you, I suggest you retract that immediately. You don't want her talking about you? Well don't fucking talk about her then, especially as you can't help doing so without getting in the obligatory pronoun dig.

 

[redsquirrel]

If the response I get to making an argument is abuse, I'll respond to it how I like, thank you very much.

Fuck you. It's not ok to respond to abuse with racist, sexist or homophobic comments and it's not ok to respond to abuse with transphobic shit, regardless of the abuse that's coming your way.

 

[Shechemite]

Fuck you. It's not ok to respond to abuse with racist, sexist or homophobic comments and it's not ok to respond to abuse with transphobic shit, regardless of the abuse that's coming your way.

What’s transphobic about referring to pengaleng as a boy?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Given your reaction to Sea Star when she made accusations against you, I suggest you retract that immediately. You don't want her talking about you? Well don't fucking talk about her then, especially as you can't help doing so without getting in the obligatory pronoun dig.

SS was lying about me, I am telling the truth. SS was attacking a young transsexual who was tweeting details of an experience of sexual harassment and SS made out this was 'hate speech'. And no, I will not be submitting to SS over pronouns.