Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[bimble]

a transwoman

 

[Treacle Toes]

Spit it out princess...no time to play games after a long day actually doing some work... what's the shockgaff that you are trying to shit stir about.

Should I have written transgender woman?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Because you absolutely know it will cause upset and offence. Whilst you can argue on the details of what it means to be a 'woman' in terms of biological sex and point out the differences between cis and transgender women, I don't see why you can't use the she/her pronouns for someone who is a transwoman even if you reject them.

Why should anyone have to do that? Isn't it fundamentally illiberal to effectively police someone's thoughts and speech?

 

[MochaSoul]

Yep. I relate to everything she says completely, including the frustration with 'just pick another gender identity then' as the only offered solution.

Oh yes, totally forgetting that by the time one decides to stop fighting there's been a lot of emotional investment.

 

[8ball]

Why should anyone have to do that? Isn't it fundamentally illiberal to effectively police someone's thoughts and speech?

You don’t have to, but on this board there’s a “don’t be a dick” rule.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why should anyone have to do that? Isn't it fundamentally illiberal to effectively police someone's thoughts and speech?

Well that is one way of looking at it I suppose...another is that it's kind and not deliberately hurtful. Not being a dick is the benchmark.

 

[TopCat]

You were put on forced ignore with SS for a reason, and to be fair to her that has to work both ways. Take this shit down. I will edit my posts accordingly when you've taken it down.

Liberal picks up his baton

 

[bimble]

Spit it out princess...no time to play games after a long day actually doing some work... what's the shockgaff that you are trying to shit stir about.

Should I have written transgender woman?

Is it hateful of you to keep calling me that? Here, this is me asking you to stop. You may not be aware of it but 'princess' is a really bad choice of name for you to have picked out for me as its a typical slur against jewish women. So please stop.
This is the post you must have missed during your busy day:

it's not pedantry - it's a crucial point that something called a transwoman cannot be a woman but "trans woman" is a woman who is trans. some people use transwoman out of ignorance but others use it deliberately to make precisely that point - that trans women aren't women.

 

[TopCat]

You're not allowed to refer to her - in case you forgot / didn't care, here's the message
Which despite people telling you about it you blithely ignored

To be fair this mutual ignore is no moral imperitive just a U75 mod fudge.

 

[MochaSoul]

Why should anyone have to do that? Isn't it fundamentally illiberal to effectively police someone's thoughts and speech?

If you want to foster dialogue you can meet people halfway. They already know you don't see them as men/women. You hardly need to get in their faces just to ram your point in.

 

[smokedout]

The evidence required for a GRC isn't onerous at all.

Perhaps not if your a middle class magazine editor, have good literacy, speak English as your first lannguage, have a stable address, supportive healthcare professionals, a supportive boss or someone else who can provide evidence, find it easier to access phones and the internet to change bank statements and bills, can afford a new passport, solicitors fees, medical report fees and in many cases the fee for the GRC itself, do not struggle filling in forms, have no disabilities that make this kind of thing difficult, and have had a stable and secure enough life to be able to maintain two years worth of evidence of your gender. Oh and have recourse to private medical professionals and solicitors if you want to take the strain off. Then it's not difficult at all. For many people however it's near impossible.

Do you feel that women's only services should by default have to accommodate 'trans women'? If so, at which point in the 'transition' does the 'trans woman' become entitled to those services?

At the point that her partner is abusing her, or she gets raped and she needs a place of safety.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Fair enough if this forum rule/function is new to you and never been explained properly.

Like I said, I didn't tag, in fact I didn't even use the poster's name, just enough to allow the poster to be identified within the reply. What I was responding to was rather what I saw as a double standard.

Nonetheless, I'd still be happy to talk or even meet that person; in my experience differences on the internet often sound wider than they are IRL, especially as forum debate often concentrates on strong differences rather than the commonalities that people frequently share. Rarely is the internet a great place to resolve differences.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

If you want to foster dialogue you can meet people halfway. They already know you don't see them as men/women. You hardly need to get in their faces just to ram your point in.

I am always happy to do that, but how can I as someone who is transsexual view someone else who is transsexual differently? Please understand I am not trying to get in anyone's face.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is it hateful of you to keep calling me that? Here, this is me asking you to stop. You may not be aware of it but 'princess' is a really bad choice of name for you to have picked out for me as its a typical slur against jewish women. So please stop.
This is the post you must have missed during your busy day:

I call you that because you have persisted in a butter wouldn't melt innocent act, nothing to do with you being Jewish as you damn well know. You've never asked me to stop before so don't give it the poor you either.

Yes I did miss that post by SS. Why not just refer to it rather than the feigned shock/horror/shitstirring...oh yeah...that butter wouldn't melt, shitstirring innocence act again. Fuck you.

 

[MochaSoul]

Why should anyone have to do that? Isn't it fundamentally illiberal to effectively police someone's thoughts and speech?

Or you could use they, their, them. It's neutral enough for them not to feel insulted and for you to maintain your political/philosophical/yada integrity.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Like I said, I didn't tag, in fact I didn't even use the poster's name, just enough to allow the poster to be identified within the reply. What I was responding to was rather what I saw as a double standard.
.

You're on forced ignore, so she won't see it if you tag her.

You quoted a post from a different forum in a different name. Most of us don't use our real names on here, and don't take kindly to others unilaterally deciding to 'out' us.

 

[Treacle Toes]

it's not pedantry - it's a crucial point that something called a transwoman cannot be a woman but "trans woman" is a woman who is trans. some people use transwoman out of ignorance but others use it deliberately to make precisely that point - that trans women aren't women.

I used it this evening out of ignorance. A lot of this is new to me in the depth that it is being discussed here. I have no problem thinking how I use language.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Perhaps not if your a middle class magazine editor, have good literacy, speak English as your first lannguage, have a stable address, supportive healthcare professionals, a supportive boss or someone else who can provide evidence, find it easier to access phones and the internet to change bank statements and bills, can afford a new passport, solicitors fees, medical report fees and in many cases the fee for the GRC itself, do not struggle filling in forms, have no disabilities that make this kind of thing difficult, and have had a stable and secure enough life to be able to maintain two years worth of evidence of your gender. Oh and have recourse to private medical professionals and solicitors if you want to take the strain off. Then it's not difficult at all. For many people however it's near impossible.

There's financial and practical support available for anyone who wishes to go through this process. And as a for example, the current extortionate fee to change the passport would apply under self-ID as well as the GRA. Self-ID makes none of these easier, rather as I have said it makes life harder for transsexuals because it gives people reason to doubt our sincerity and it removes the protected characteristic we presently enjoy, 'gender reassignment' (which admittedly is not required, but when it has it is a material characteristic which may be protected). And I've stated many times nobody should lose jobs or housing because they are trans.

At the point that her partner is abusing her, or she gets raped and she needs a place of safety.

I don't think existing services would turn anyone away. We have a real problem in this country with securing funding for rape and DV shelters and services, this is an area trans and women could potentially unite to mount a more effective campaign.

 

[MochaSoul]

I am always happy to do that, but how can I as someone who is transsexual view someone else who is transsexual differently? Please understand I am not trying to get in anyone's face.

You don't have to see them as something you don't think they are. I just think that if you want to talk to them and get an argument back rather than just a reaction, it's useful to, as I said before, meet them half way.

This is not a philosophy department debate room (as much as I'd sometimes like it to be). There are real people behind the user names/avatars.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You're on forced ignore, so she won't see it if you tag her.

You quoted a post from a different forum in a different name. Most of us don't use our real names on here, and don't take kindly to others unilaterally deciding to 'out' us.

I believe it was the name that the original post I'd complained about was posted under. Now, can we agree to disagree on this and not have to discuss that individual? Thanks!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

This is not a philosophy department debate room (as much as I'd sometimes like it to be). There are real people behind the user names/avatars.

Yes, I understand that; hence why my replies have always been courteous even where I've had abuse hurled at me on here.

 

[Sea Star]

I used it this evening out of ignorance. A lot of this is new to me in the depth that it is being discussed here. I have no problem thinking how I use language.

I used it for ages out of ignorance too, but once it was pointed out to me I embraced it - even if I was skeptical to begin with. I don't expect people to get this stuff without a learning curve but it's the reams of literature produced by the TERFs that pointedly use transwomen I object to. I've even seen TERFs explaining why they use transwomen as one word, and it's what I said. It's because they don't want to say we're women.

 

[MochaSoul]

Yes, I understand that; hence why my replies have always been courteous even where I've had abuse hurled at me on here.

If courtesy extends to avoiding "misgendering" why not extend it to that? I mean, is it really that difficult for you to use they, their, them? Does it make that much of a difference to your ability to argue?

 

[MochaSoul]

I used it for ages out of ignorance too, but once it was pointed out to me I embraced it - even if I was skeptical to begin with. I don't expect people to get this stuff without a learning curve but it's the reams of literature produced by the TERFs that pointedly use transwomen I object to. I've even seen TERFs explaining why they use transwomen as one word, and it's what I said. It's because they don't want to say we're women.

If they don't consider you to be a woman then what? They should shut up about it?

 

[smokedout]

There's financial and practical support available for anyone who wishes to go through this process.

You sound like Iain Duncan Smith now.

I don't think existing services would turn anyone away. We have a real problem in this country with securing funding for rape and DV shelters and services, this is an area trans and women could potentially unite to mount a more effective campaign.

They have been, see Sisters Uncut for details, you and your cronies were strangely absent.

But to be clear, do you support transwomen having access to women's refuges and rape counselling as things stand now?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You sound like Iain Duncan Smith now.

Never a post without an ad hominem.

 

[Sea Star]

If they don't consider you to be a woman then what? They should shut up about it?

nice try. Just saying, we know there's an agenda behind use of "transwomen" and was wondering about writing cis as CIS that's all.

I'm not trying to shut anyone up - just want the rights i need to live a reasonable life - and if not me, then others coming behind me.

 

[MochaSoul]

nice try. Just saying, we know there's an agenda behind use of "transwomen" and was wondering about writing CIS as cis that's all.

Fine. But you have no right to simply assume and proceed on that assumption to make accusations of people arguing for that agenda on the grounds that the spoke this or that way or used this or that term even if they refuse to be dictated by the politically correct speech police. It does NOT endear them to your cause, I can tell you that from my own experience. It just serves to make people fearful of debating, asking, exploring or simply just talking.
Where's your jibe at this?

do you support transwomen having access to women's refuges

Or is it just those you haven't yet roped in to your cause whose words you're sensitive to?

 

[Nemesisuk]

Never a post without an ad hominem.

I see you side stepped the question. Which seems to happen a lot.

 

[Sea Star]

Fine. But you have no right to simply assume and proceed on that assumption to make accusations of people arguing for that agenda on the grounds that the spoke this or that way or used this or that term even if they refuse to be dictated by the political correct speech police. It does NOT endear them to your cause, I can tell you that from my own experience. It just serves to make people fearful of debating, asking, exploring or simply just talking.
Where's your jibe at this?

Or is it just those you haven't yet roped in to your cause whose words you're sensitive to?

i didn't point my finger at anyone and i went out of my way to state that i don't expect people not to make mistakes - i used the term myself until someone had a gentle word with me. And now i try to have gentle words with others. There is no political correct speech police - at least -i'm not part of it. But this is just a case of good grammar. Trans in this context is short for transgender and it's an adjective. Transgenderwomen looks daft - i'm sure you agree so if you wouldn't write transgenderwomen then why write transwomen. See also any other adjective that could apply to a person - it's always two seperate words. Not even a hyphen is employed in modern English.

Please give Smokedout the respect that they deserve as a human being to have made their own mind up and not make claims that i roped anyone in to my way of thinking. It does sound rather paranoid tbh and i don;t even know Smokedout, and i certainly don;t agree 100% with everything they've said (not so much that i feel the need to argue with them, because, on the whole i like what they've been saying on here), but on the other hand I am tolerant of other people having a different opinion so that's fine.