Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
will you read your own posts please?
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
There isn't a single "problem" in my view.
There are all sorts of definitional claims and arguments knocking about, but the one I personally see most is the argument over what particular degrees and contexts feminists can/should accept the "trans women are women" claim.
Which is a question for feminists, obv.
Treacle Toes
Time
Sorry to go on...
But does anyone have any ideas what
But does anyone have any ideas what
means?
Nothing ad hominem about it. You are happy to work with the worst kind of misogynists, who cheered on the benefit cuts for lone parents, who supported slashing funding for women's services, who is a one of the most homophobic MPs and an openly racist, climate change denying piece of filth.
Just like your comrades have cosy'd up to the Daily Mail. Your politics are shit, you should be ashamed of yourself for giving that twat a PR boost so he can pretend he gives a shit about women - you are a danger to women if you are prepared to make these compromises.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
My 'definition', such as it is, is merely an acknowledgement of the existence of gender alongside/as a layer on top of biological sex. But we only have one word, 'woman' or 'man', to identify both, because our language reflects a time when, in our society, the two were taken to be inseparable - 'god-given', even, in the minds of many.
You're right that gender involves a web of stereotypes. Acknowledging its existence doesn't necessarily imply approval. But criticising how it functions doesn't stop it being a very deeply embedded part of how most people operate, something that few of us can escape. It seems to me to be a very specific and unworthy targetting when criticising gender to take aim at those who wish to change their gender identity.
Would you respect an intersex person's gender if they lived in the gender role counter to their reproductive potential?
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
So they can constantly demand that we "check our privilege" while they disregard our misgivings.
Because in arguing that definitions of gender identity such as "gender identity is the gender one feels/chooses" make too elusive definitions to base laws on that will affect us negatively we're failing to check that privilege.
The same questions arise from "Transgender men are men" which as a cis man you are as able to comment on as women are.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
I was critical of DD's voting record in Parliament, to his face and in everything I have written about this. As were, I am sure, the dozen female Labour MPs who attended this meeting and supported it.
What do you say to trans writers like, for example, Jane Fae who is happy to accept the money and exposure given by the Daily Mail?
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
Gender *is* stereotypes, sex-based stereotypes (cf 'sexism'), it is cultural and differs across time and cultures. Being a woman, as an adult human female, is not all about performing a cultural stereotype.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
You missed the important part of my question: if someone belongs to a reproductive class, how can they be intersex? Your question is, quite literally, begging the question as it relies on a false premise.
Sure you have, savaged him in fact:
'classic liberal' lol. Do you support children working in factories?
There's a difference between trying to use them as a platform and passing on stories to whip up a bigoted mob. But no, I don't support anyone writing for the Daily Mail generally.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh, smokedout shouldn't have anticipated an expression of respect
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
For better or worse, aspects of gender performance do form a part of 'being a woman' or 'being a man' for a very large number of people in particular contexts. And not just because we're all indoctrinated fools. You seem to want there to be a definitive answer to the question 'Does gender trump sex, or does sex trump gender?' I don't see why there necessarily needs to be an answer to that question.
Can I take it that means no, you wouldn't recognise the gender of an intersex person, who was technically biologically capable of conceiving but who lived as a man.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that everyone who is intersex is infertile? Because that just isnt true.
and that intersex people who are infertile can be neither man or woman?
Treacle Toes
Time
I think it's odd that you won't qualify what you meant with this Miranda Yardley
What is di short for? Dick?
What is di short for? Dick?
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Do they assign fertile intersex people to the gender that mismatches their gametes?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ah, I'm a bit slow. I hadn't thought of that. I do hope so.
Ah, I'm a bit slow. I hadn't thought of that. I do hope so.
I did, but it wasnt worth bothering with
free spirit
more tea vicar?
there's a significant difference. Those prefixes refer to their sexual orientation in terms of whether they fancy men or women. Both lesbian and straight women were born as women, would fall in the CIS woman classification now, and would always previously have fallen into the category of being women.
Trans women weren't born as women, they don't fall into the CIS women classification. They (or their advocates) have self identified as not being the same as CIS women by bringing the CIS classification into use to differentiate women born as women from trans women, and then want to redefine the term 'woman' (without any prefix) to always include both CIS and trans, whereas previously it has been used to mean CIS women without the need for the prefix.
This has then been extended from those who've actually been through gender reassignment surgery, hormone treatment etc to transition as closely as possible to the sex they feel they should be, to now include those who 'self identify as a woman' but present pretty obviously as a man and have no intention of attempting to present as a woman (such as those with a full beard).
As far as I can see with this, transrights activists in the last few years have decided that this is how it should be, and then rather than consulting with the feminist movement to discuss their opinions on it and seek some form of consensus on it, have sought to force this change upon them via a campaign of hounding anyone who dissents from their viewpoint on it.
This has been compounded by the identity politics heirachy bollocks which automatically places trans women as being less privileged than CIS women, and therefore that their voices should be heard louder and feminist campaigns should be diverted to support the transrights campaigns rather than say focusing on reproductive rights issues.
So effectively transrights activists (at least a vocal subsection of them) want feminist groups not only to accept that trans women should be included in their groups and campaigns, but then want to subvert those campaigns for their own aims. Given this, I'd be unsurprised if some long running feminist campaign groups have told them to get to fuck.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Yeah he's a grand ally of women everywhere. Voting against abortion rights in 2008 was a highlight, along with that time he harassed Diane Abbott. Oh and of course how could we forget...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Wrong tory cunt.
The other ones even worse.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Oh sorry my bad, you meant the massive racist who tried to get abortion reduced to 12 weeks. Apologies
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
No, and neither did 'classic liberals'. My political compass is JS Mill, who was not just years ahead of his own time, but is years ahead of now, with his thoughts on democracy, women's rights and free speech.
Please advise me of anything I have ever said that is 'bigoted'.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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