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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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Miranda Yardley said:
In fact, the dominant claim is now that 'trans women' are not just women, but also female. The problem appears to run deeper than you believe.
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There isn't a single "problem" in my view.

There are all sorts of definitional claims and arguments knocking about, but the one I personally see most is the argument over what particular degrees and contexts feminists can/should accept the "trans women are women" claim.

Which is a question for feminists, obv.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
Again, that's an ad hominem argument. If you read his writing on this, he can identify the problem as it affects women and girls. Also, during the meeting in Parliament, he identified and acknowledged a number of the problems trans ideology causes for lesbians and gay men. It pains me he can see this, whereas progressives cannot: the infection of the left with identity politics, straying from the material analysis of Bentham, Mill, Marx, Engels and Gramsci, is horseshoeing the left into another form of the right, in authoritarian, metaphysical and neoliberal economic terms.
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Nothing ad hominem about it. You are happy to work with the worst kind of misogynists, who cheered on the benefit cuts for lone parents, who supported slashing funding for women's services, who is a one of the most homophobic MPs and an openly racist, climate change denying piece of filth.

Just like your comrades have cosy'd up to the Daily Mail. Your politics are shit, you should be ashamed of yourself for giving that twat a PR boost so he can pretend he gives a shit about women - you are a danger to women if you are prepared to make these compromises.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
Your definition is reliant on stereotypes. Being 'a woman' is a biological reality with material, real-world consequences. Just as is 'being a man'.
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My 'definition', such as it is, is merely an acknowledgement of the existence of gender alongside/as a layer on top of biological sex. But we only have one word, 'woman' or 'man', to identify both, because our language reflects a time when, in our society, the two were taken to be inseparable - 'god-given', even, in the minds of many.

You're right that gender involves a web of stereotypes. Acknowledging its existence doesn't necessarily imply approval. But criticising how it functions doesn't stop it being a very deeply embedded part of how most people operate, something that few of us can escape. It seems to me to be a very specific and unworthy targetting when criticising gender to take aim at those who wish to change their gender identity.
 
free spirit said:
If Trans women are female, the same as CIS women, and should be referred to as women, female and she in the same way and fully accepted as being in the same category as CIS women, why is there a constant need by transrights activists to differentiate between CIS and Trans women via the use of the 'CIS' and 'Trans' labels?
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So they can constantly demand that we "check our privilege" while they disregard our misgivings.

free spirit said:
On the one hand the differences are obvious and recognised via the CIS / Trans labels, but on the other any feminist (or apparently Trans person) who attempts to point this out is a nasty TERF.
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Because in arguing that definitions of gender identity such as "gender identity is the gender one feels/chooses" make too elusive definitions to base laws on that will affect us negatively we're failing to check that privilege.

free spirit said:
I've hesitated to say this as a CIS man, but being as the majority of the most active contributors to this thread are also CIS men I hope to avoid the accusations of mansplaining on this occasion.
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The same questions arise from "Transgender men are men" which as a cis man you are as able to comment on as women are.
 
smokedout said:
Nothing ad hominem about it. You are happy to work with the worst kind of misogynists, who cheered on the benefit cuts for lone parents, who supported slashing funding for women's services, who is a one of the most homophobic MPs and an openly racist, climate change denying piece of filth.

Just like your comrades have cosy'd up to the Daily Mail. Your politics are shit, you should be ashamed of yourself for giving that twat a PR boost so he can pretend he gives a shit about women - you are a danger to women if you are prepared to make these compromises.
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I was critical of DD's voting record in Parliament, to his face and in everything I have written about this. As were, I am sure, the dozen female Labour MPs who attended this meeting and supported it.

What do you say to trans writers like, for example, Jane Fae who is happy to accept the money and exposure given by the Daily Mail?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
My 'definition', such as it is, is merely an acknowledgement of the existence of gender alongside/as a layer on top of biological sex. But we only have one word, 'woman' or 'man', to identify both, because our language reflects a time when, in our society, the two were taken to be inseparable - 'god-given', even, in the minds of many.

You're right that gender involves a web of stereotypes. Acknowledging its existence doesn't necessarily imply approval. But criticising how it functions doesn't stop it being a very deeply embedded part of how most people operate, something that few of us can escape. It seems to me to be a very specific and unworthy targetting when criticising gender to take aim at those who wish to change their gender identity.
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Gender *is* stereotypes, sex-based stereotypes (cf 'sexism'), it is cultural and differs across time and cultures. Being a woman, as an adult human female, is not all about performing a cultural stereotype.
 
smokedout said:
Would you respect an intersex person's gender if they lived in the gender role counter to their reproductive potential?
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You missed the important part of my question: if someone belongs to a reproductive class, how can they be intersex? Your question is, quite literally, begging the question as it relies on a false premise.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
I was critical of DD's voting record in Parliament, to his face and in everything I have written about this. As were, I am sure, the dozen female Labour MPs who attended this meeting and supported it.
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Sure you have, savaged him in fact:

Mr Davies is an unlikely ally to the cause I am promoting. It is my view that The 2015 Transgender Equality Report is an unbalanced, one-sided, socially regressive and profoundly anti-woman document; the inquiry that produced this simply did not get to grips with the subject matter they are reporting on and the document is more a work of propaganda than a reasoned investigation. It is a work of activists and activism.

There is some irony that, aside from Caroline Flint MP in the now defunct bill’s first reading, the only MP to have demonstrated any understanding of the issues involved and how these impact on women is a white, middle-class Tory MP with a voting record that is anathema to classic liberals such as myself. Yet, kudos to Mr Davies, he gets it, and in asides during the meeting he demonstrated understanding of how this also adversely affects LGB rights. It’s like entering ‘The Twilight Zone’ when a Conservative MP is doing the work of the left because the left is toothless, impotent, powerless.
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'classic liberal' lol. Do you support children working in factories?

What do you say to trans writers like, for example, Jane Fae who is happy to accept the money and exposure given by the Daily Mail?
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There's a difference between trying to use them as a platform and passing on stories to whip up a bigoted mob. But no, I don't support anyone writing for the Daily Mail generally.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
Gender *is* stereotypes, sex-based stereotypes (cf 'sexism'), it is cultural and differs across time and cultures. Being a woman, as an adult human female, is not all about performing a cultural stereotype.
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For better or worse, aspects of gender performance do form a part of 'being a woman' or 'being a man' for a very large number of people in particular contexts. And not just because we're all indoctrinated fools. You seem to want there to be a definitive answer to the question 'Does gender trump sex, or does sex trump gender?' I don't see why there necessarily needs to be an answer to that question.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
You missed the important part of my question: if someone belongs to a reproductive class, how can they be intersex? Your question is, quite literally, begging the question as it relies on a false premise.
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Can I take it that means no, you wouldn't recognise the gender of an intersex person, who was technically biologically capable of conceiving but who lived as a man.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
You missed the important part of my question: if someone belongs to a reproductive class, how can they be intersex? Your question is, quite literally, begging the question as it relies on a false premise.
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Are you suggesting that everyone who is intersex is infertile? Because that just isnt true.
 
smokedout said:
This is a daft argument, you can have lesbian woman and straight women, it doesn't mean one of those groups isn't a woman.
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there's a significant difference. Those prefixes refer to their sexual orientation in terms of whether they fancy men or women. Both lesbian and straight women were born as women, would fall in the CIS woman classification now, and would always previously have fallen into the category of being women.

Trans women weren't born as women, they don't fall into the CIS women classification. They (or their advocates) have self identified as not being the same as CIS women by bringing the CIS classification into use to differentiate women born as women from trans women, and then want to redefine the term 'woman' (without any prefix) to always include both CIS and trans, whereas previously it has been used to mean CIS women without the need for the prefix.

This has then been extended from those who've actually been through gender reassignment surgery, hormone treatment etc to transition as closely as possible to the sex they feel they should be, to now include those who 'self identify as a woman' but present pretty obviously as a man and have no intention of attempting to present as a woman (such as those with a full beard).

As far as I can see with this, transrights activists in the last few years have decided that this is how it should be, and then rather than consulting with the feminist movement to discuss their opinions on it and seek some form of consensus on it, have sought to force this change upon them via a campaign of hounding anyone who dissents from their viewpoint on it.

This has been compounded by the identity politics heirachy bollocks which automatically places trans women as being less privileged than CIS women, and therefore that their voices should be heard louder and feminist campaigns should be diverted to support the transrights campaigns rather than say focusing on reproductive rights issues.

So effectively transrights activists (at least a vocal subsection of them) want feminist groups not only to accept that trans women should be included in their groups and campaigns, but then want to subvert those campaigns for their own aims. Given this, I'd be unsurprised if some long running feminist campaign groups have told them to get to fuck.
 
smokedout said:
'classic liberal' lol. Do you support children working in factories?
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No, and neither did 'classic liberals'. My political compass is JS Mill, who was not just years ahead of his own time, but is years ahead of now, with his thoughts on democracy, women's rights and free speech.

smokedout said:
There's a difference between trying to use them as a platform and passing on stories to whip up a bigoted mob. But no, I don't support anyone writing for the Daily Mail generally.
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Please advise me of anything I have ever said that is 'bigoted'.
 
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