Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[weepiper]

I don't think trans men or trans women have gender privilege. But certainly there are trans men who have described being taken more seriously at work etc, which would suggest some male privilege being accessed.

Perhaps trans men aren't as active/vocal in transgender politics because they experience more acceptance than trans women.

Perhaps that's because 'being male', that is a woman performing male gender role behaviour, is more acceptable than 'being female'. Being a woman is default bad or lesser. Being a man is desirable and to be admired (if you are prepared to buy into the stereotypical gender roles, that is if you conform satisfactorily to expectations). These are messages we're all given constantly from birth. I don't know, I just found it an interesting set of things to think about re trans men and trans women and how they are presented in the media.

 

[bimble]

Perhaps because transwomen currently outnumber transmen by anywhere betwen five and ten to one depending on who's estimate you use, although that is starting to change.

Have you got any ideas as to why this might be (this disparity?) Just something I'm curious about.

 

[smokedout]

Have you got any ideas as to why this might be (this disparity?) Just something I'm curious about.

No-one really knows, possibly a biological driver that's more common in people born biologically male, possibly because under partiarchy it has been more acceptable for someone born biologically male to move into the role of a woman than it is for a biological woman to become a man, possibly because their was more scope for FtMs to live in stealth in the butch lesbian community, or any other number of reasons.

Amongst young people referred to gender identity clinics I think for the first time recently transmen are starting to outnumber transwomen, so it looks like it was probably some kind of social phenomena.

 

[andysays]

Would genuinely like to know what the radical feminist position on this is tbh.

I'm obviously not qualified to comment directly, but I'd be wary of assuming that there is, necessarily, one single and definitive radical feminist position on this (these) issue(s).

Do you have to know what the radical feminist position on this is before you can reach your own position?

To expand on my previous post now that I'm on a computer rather than a phone, it seems that one aspect of why some women might characterise the 'transgender movement' as being an attack on female identity specifically is that part of that movement is composed of people who were born and still are biologically male and were socialised as men (with all the implications behind that), insisting that they be viewed and treated as women in absolutely every respect, including being admitted to often hard-fought for women/female only spaces where they feel safe.

As a man, I don't feel the need for such spaces, so the idea of people who were born and may still be biologically female and were socialised as women being admitted to men/male only spaces (whatever they are, exactly) is frankly not one that bothers me in the slightest.

 

[spanglechick]

Have you got any ideas as to why this might be (this disparity?) Just something I'm curious about.

I'd imagine would-be trans men have been able to quiet their gender dysphoria by assuming many of what they consider male behaviours without having to notify the wider world. It's much harder for trans women to do this, for the reasons weeps gives above.

 

[spanglechick]

"Radical" is in the eye of the beholder.

For me radfems might -at the more moderate end- believe in the aim to entirely dismantle gender as a construct, right the way to those who dream of a female-only utopia. Radfems, ime, do tend to be trans exclusionary.


Few of the trans exclusionary people I have seen would count as radfems, though some do. Some are feminists, some are not. Many are men - who seem more upset by trans women than trans men.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm obviously not qualified to comment directly, but I'd be wary of assuming that there is, necessarily, one single and definitive radical feminist position on this (these) issue(s).

Do you have to know what the radical feminist position on this is before you can reach your own position?

To expand on my previous post now that I'm on a computer rather than a phone, it seems that one aspect of why some women might characterise the 'transgender movement' as being an attack on female identity specifically is that part of that movement is composed of people who were born and still are biologically male and were socialised as men (with all the implications behind that), insisting that they be viewed and treated as women in absolutely every respect, including being admitted to often hard-fought for women/female only spaces where they feel safe.

As a man, I don't feel the need for such spaces, so the idea of people who were born and may still be biologically female and were socialised as women being admitted to men/male only spaces (whatever they are, exactly) is frankly not one that bothers me in the slightest.

I still don't think we've established that there is a 'transgender movement' at all. There are transgender people, some of whom campaign visibly for transgender rights, and others who support those people and their aims. But the implication, and I think it's a very deliberate implication used by for specfic purposes, that all trans people and allies of same are part of a single unified organisation with unified goals and strategies and a high command presumably led by Caitlin Jenner in a hollowed out volcano somewhere is pretty clearly nonsense.

Going back to the kerfuffle that inspired this thread, that clearly wasn't the work of any unified transgender movement because so many trans people and supporters of trans rights have publically condemned the violence that took place there. When it comes to responding to anti-trans hate speech there are lots of different ideas on what to do, from physical confrontation to communicating with the venues hosting TERFy events to creative protests to doing nothing at all and just waiting for the spittle-flecked contingent to get bored or run out of bile. There will be trans people who want nothing to do with any of it, preferring instead to just try and get on with their lives in peace and hope nobody turns up with pitchforks and torches. Being trans isn't a movement you join for the craic, it's just a thing some people are.

 

[mojo pixy]

Few of the trans exclusionary people I have seen would count as radfems, though some do. Some are feminists, some are not. Many are men - who seem more upset by trans women than trans men.

In my experience, this is definitely the case. I wonder if transwomen are seen as more of a threat to (ones) masculinity than transmen are. I have tried to reflect on why and I feel I have some ideas, but I'm not comfortable posting those just now. I'll leave it to others better suited to the conflict that's bound to ensue.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Interestingly, that's about asserting trans men's identity (as many still menstruate, and so feel excluded by statements like "only women have periods".

Are you saying that trans men are exhibiting male privilege, contrary to weepiper 's post?

Nope. I gave a link and didn’t say anything.

 

[spanglechick]

Nope. I gave a link and didn’t say anything.

I know, hence my follow up question. That's how discussion works.

 

[bimble]

I'd imagine would-be trans men have been able to quiet their gender dysphoria by assuming many of what they consider male behaviours without having to notify the wider world. It's much harder for trans women to do this, for the reasons weeps gives above.

When you say 'male behaviours' in there do you mean behaviours or clothes ?

 

[andysays]

I still don't think we've established that there is a 'transgender movement' at all. There are transgender people, some of whom campaign visibly for transgender rights, and others who support those people and their aims. But the implication, and I think it's a very deliberate implication used by for specfic purposes, that all trans people and allies of same are part of a single unified organisation with unified goals and strategies and a high command presumably led by Caitlin Jenner in a hollowed out volcano somewhere is pretty clearly nonsense.

Going back to the kerfuffle that inspired this thread, that clearly wasn't the work of any unified transgender movement because so many trans people and supporters of trans rights have publically condemned the violence that took place there. When it comes to responding to anti-trans hate speech there are lots of different ideas on what to do, from physical confrontation to communicating with the venues hosting TERFy events to creative protests to doing nothing at all and just waiting for the spittle-flecked contingent to get bored or run out of bile. There will be trans people who want nothing to do with any of it, preferring instead to just try and get on with their lives in peace and hope nobody turns up with pitchforks and torches. Being trans isn't a movement you join for the craic, it's just a thing some people are.

I agree that it's unlikely there's one single unitary transgender movement, anymore than there's one single unitary TERF movement.

But there are certainly some people on both "sides" who claim to represent and speak for everyone on their "side", including attempting to define the expression of views contrary to theirs as "hate speech", and so it's perhaps understandable that some people on (both) the opposing "side(s)" speak/behave sometimes as if that's the case.

 

[Shechemite]

“deny your right to exist.”

What do you mean by this SpookyFrank ? Who is denying the right of transwomen to exist? How are they doing it?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Feminist campaigner Venice Allan kicked out of Labour Christmas party
Feminist kicked out of Labour Christmas party | Daily Mail Online

A quick demonstration of how the TERF - conservative media alliance operates. TERFs are fully aware that their minority splinter from the feminist movement does not have the social weight or influence to combat the, ahem, trans menace. So they work to assist the forces that do, i.e. social conservatives.

"@TimeLucy surely there is a story here"

 

[smokedout]

“deny your right to exist.”

What do you mean by this SpookyFrank ? Who is denying the right of transwomen to exist? How are they doing it?

Here's an example from terf icon Janice Raymond

What I actually wrote in my book is the following: “the issue of transsexualism has profound political and moral ramifications; transsexualism itself is a deeply moral question rather than a medical-technical answer. I contend that the problem of transsexualism would best be served by morally mandating it out of existence.” What this means is that I want to eliminate the medical and social systems that support transsexualism and the reasons why in a gender-defined society, persons find it necessary to change their bodies.

Sheila Jeffries wants to ban trans healthcare. Venice Allan wants to repeal the 2004 Gender recognition act. The aim is to remove the legal and medical structures which allow transpeople to live in their aquired gender.

 

[spanglechick]

When you say 'male behaviours' in there do you mean behaviours or clothes ?

Any, both, other...

I'm not trans and I have never felt the need to conform to gender roles in order to feel female, so I wouldn't want to speak on behalf of non-cis people.

 

[smokedout]

I do think it's an outrage that someone who posted rape jokes on Twitter is now a women's officer. Please tell me why I shouldn't be concerned, without calling me a terf, please.

Just came across an archive of the offfending twitter account, which only has a handful of tweets and one follower. Lily claimed the account was set up by her brother to tease her, given the nature of the page that seems pretty plausible to me. I think these allegations should be viewed with caution.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

There’s a funny section on this site where people used to write abusive stuff and then blame their kid brother. The grovel gallery?
It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility but it’s a well trodden excuse.

 

[smokedout]

There’s a funny section on this site where people used to write abusive stuff and then blame their kid brother. The grovel gallery?
It’s not beyond the bounds of possibility but it’s a well trodden excuse.

True but the abuse on that account seems to be aimed at Lily, such as the suggestion she was Saville's apprentice and the embarrassing childhood pics. Also I'm fairly sure the only follower of that account is her brother. This looks like the kind of dicking about or conflict that teenage siblings might get up to.

What is concerning is the number of middle aged adults using those personal photos of a child to bully and sexualise Lily.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yeah fair point. The bullying from both sides is ugly but yeah child photos is beyond the pale.

 

[lazythursday]

Even if Lily did make these tweets, surely it makes absolute sense that a born male teenager struggling with gender issues might well push in the other direction, try to act really macho in an effort to deny those feelings and conform? I know that when I was struggling with my sexuality I made a right dick of myself trying to pass as straight, including being homophobic. These coming out processes are fucking traumatic and nobody should be held to account for their missteps.

 

[Coconutjob]

Why should others have the right to define who you are while you have no say in the matter?

I don't think 'reality' enters into it when we're talking about gender roles and idenities. Reality in these terms is nothing more or less than what we decide it is; just because one definition of something is the most commonly understood doesn't necessarily mean it represents objective fact. How many times has something that was once universally accepted ended up being totally discredited, forgotten or ridiculed? God was once reality, the flat earth was once reality, beige kitchen appliances with little ears of wheat on them were once reality; all those things are now dead or dying.

Im not sure where you're going with that reply, SpookyFrank. People used to think some stuff (e.g. flat earth) was real ... then people found out said stuff (e.g. flat earth) wasn't real?
Others have the right to define your reality because the world isn't "your" reality. It's everyone's reality. It's our reality too

 

[baldrick]

Looks like this is the type of thing that led to the decision



I think the jokes, whatever

Just came across an archive of the offfending twitter account, which only has a handful of tweets and one follower. Lily claimed the account was set up by her brother to tease her, given the nature of the page that seems pretty plausible to me. I think these allegations should be viewed with caution.

Fair. But it needs to be investigated, properly.

A denial isn't really good enough for me tbh. It's plausible that it was her brother, it's also plausible that it was her. I'd like a definite answer, I suspect I'm not the only one.

 

[19force8]

Fair. But it needs to be investigated, properly.

Yep, what this piece of juvenile twattery really needs is a full on internet investigation.

A denial isn't really good enough for me tbh. It's plausible that it was her brother, it's also plausible that it was her. I'd like a definite answer, I suspect I'm not the only one.

Sadly, you probably aren't.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Telling women how to think and feel again...

 

[bimble]

I couldn’t give a monkeys about Lily’s tweets or Dr rads tbh. As spanglechick said arseholes exist on both ‘sides’.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Feminist campaigner Venice Allan kicked out of Labour Christmas party
Feminist kicked out of Labour Christmas party | Daily Mail Online

A quick demonstration of how the TERF - conservative media alliance operates. TERFs are fully aware that their minority splinter from the feminist movement does not have the social weight or influence to combat the, ahem, trans menace. So they work to assist the forces that do, i.e. social conservatives.

"@TimeLucy surely there is a story here"

I'm sure Venice has a legitimate reason for deliberately taking that selfie other than being a fucking twat and wanting to irritate/intimidate.

 

[19force8]

Telling women how to think and feel again...

Very sharp with the ID pol answers today. Twat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair. But it needs to be investigated, properly.

A denial isn't really good enough for me tbh. It's plausible that it was her brother, it's also plausible that it was her. I'd like a definite answer, I suspect I'm not the only one.

An internet thing that nobody had ever seen other than her and her brother until somebody dug it up, done, even if it was her, when she was 14. I'd want the fucker who went digging for it and then publicised it to be investigated, personally.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Typing someone’s name into twitter and seeing what comes up is hardly investigative journalism bordering on stalking. It takes seconds.