Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[bimble]

'biological male' / female is maybe a simpler less ideological thing to say.
I still haven't heard an inclusive definition of woman that has any more substance to it than 'people who identify as women', which is so circular it'd never make an entry into the dictionary.

 

[SpookyFrank]

'Assigned male at birth' is a bit of sophistry.

Only because we use the same adjectives to describe sex and gender. Yes, most people are born as either one sex or the other, but it's not disingenuous to say that they are assigned a gender. Their name will be different because of it, their upbringing and education and the expectations places on them will be different, and all for reasons that have no basis in biology.

People are assigned all sorts of other things too. Many of them also related to gender. You might be the gobby one or the grumpy one or the quiet one or the slutty one or whatever. If you don't like that category you're placed into against your will, if you don't believe it fits who you actually are, why should you not be able to challenge people who call you those things? Why should you not have the opportunity to define yourself as something else? Why should gender be any different from any other made-up category of person?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Is it your opinion that a belief that a conception of women as adult human females is harmful to trans women, such that it ought not to be expressed?

I'm saying if you express that view and someone is hurt by it, you should take responsibility for that. I have opinions I keep to myself because expressing them is less important than letting those who might be offended by them go about their lives in peace. Everybody does this in sme form or other, if they didn't society would be a smouldering ruin by now.

If I did feel the need to say something that was likely to upset people though, I would do my best to say it in a context of understanding and respect, and to listen to what others said in response. What I wouldn't do is bleat on endlessly about not being allowed to say something which I then go on to say repeatedly and at length with no actual consequences for doing so.

 

[Coconutjob]

Why should you not have the opportunity to define yourself as something else? Why should gender be any different from any other made-up category or person?

Why do you think that what one "defines oneself as" has any significance at all -- to the extent that others should cater for or recognise this definition -- especially when the identity one adopts is inconsistent with reality?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why do you think that what one "defines oneself as" has any significance at all -- to the extent that others should cater for or recognise this definition -- especially when the identity one adopts is inconsistent with reality?

Why should others have the right to define who you are while you have no say in the matter?

I don't think 'reality' enters into it when we're talking about gender roles and idenities. Reality in these terms is nothing more or less than what we decide it is; just because one definition of something is the most commonly understood doesn't necessarily mean it represents objective fact. How many times has something that was once universally accepted ended up being totally discredited, forgotten or ridiculed? God was once reality, the flat earth was once reality, beige kitchen appliances with little ears of wheat on them were once reality; all those things are now dead or dying.

 

[bimble]

Bit early to celebrate the end of gender I think SpookyFrank seeing as its arguably worse now than it was in the age of the beige kitchen appliances.
Toys Are More Divided by Gender Now Than They Were 50 Years Ago

 

[SpookyFrank]

Bit early to celebrate the end of gender I think SpookyFrank seeing as its arguably worse now than it was in the age of the beige kitchen appliances.
Toys Are More Divided by Gender Now Than They Were 50 Years Ago

I'm not celebrating yet don't worry. But I can see how silly this will all seem to future people who were born and raised as 'people' and not as pink people or blue people.

 

[kabbes]

beige kitchen appliances with little ears of wheat on them were once reality; all those things are now dead or dying.

^^^Liked for this bit

 

[TopCat]

Only because we use the same adjectives to describe sex and gender. Yes, most people are born as either one sex or the other, but it's not disingenuous to say that they are assigned a gender. Their name will be different because of it, their upbringing and education and the expectations places on them will be different, and all for reasons that have no basis in biology.

People are assigned all sorts of other things too. Many of them also related to gender. You might be the gobby one or the grumpy one or the quiet one or the slutty one or whatever. If you don't like that category you're placed into against your will, if you don't believe it fits who you actually are, why should you not be able to challenge people who call you those things? Why should you not have the opportunity to define yourself as something else? Why should gender be any different from any other made-up category of person?

What, like being labelled cis?

 

[SpookyFrank]

What, like being labelled cis?

With 'cis' it seems to be the word itself rather than the actual meaning of that word which people object to, or possibly the very fact of their being a word that means what 'cis' means.

Considering 'cis' is the antonym of 'trans' even in contexts unrelated to gender, it would seem to be as neutral and non-loaded as any word can be. Cis wasn't invented by liberal snowflakes last week as a stick with which to beat the downtrodden majority, it actually predates the English language by millennia.

 

[Athos]

Only because we use the same adjectives to describe sex and gender. Yes, most people are born as either one sex or the other, but it's not disingenuous to say that they are assigned a gender. Their name will be different because of it, their upbringing and education and the expectations places on them will be different, and all for reasons that have no basis in biology.

People are assigned all sorts of other things too. Many of them also related to gender. You might be the gobby one or the grumpy one or the quiet one or the slutty one or whatever. If you don't like that category you're placed into against your will, if you don't believe it fits who you actually are, why should you not be able to challenge people who call you those things? Why should you not have the opportunity to define yourself as something else? Why should gender be any different from any other made-up category of person?

Perhaps it would have been cleared of I'd said 'born into the male sex', rather than 'born male'.

Yes, people are assigned a gender at birth.

Are you seriously suggesting that that assignment isn't based entirely on sex? In that sense, gender differences, whilst not essential or immutable, do have a very clear basis in biology.

I agree people should have the right to believe anything they like about themselves. But, as with any right, the difficulty comes when it clashes with other people's rights. In this case, some women feel that have a right to exclude people born in to the male sex from their spaces. I'm guessing you'd not ordinarily debt women's right to organise on that basis. So it becomes a question of how best to accommodate competing rights.

 

[Athos]

With 'cis' it seems to be the word itself rather than the actual meaning of that word which people object to, or possibly the very fact of their being a word that means what 'cis' means.

Considering 'cis' is the antonym of 'trans' even in contexts unrelated to gender, it would seem to be as neutral and non-loaded as any word can be. Cis wasn't invented by liberal snowflakes last week as a stick with which to beat the downtrodden majority, it actually predates the English language by millennia.

If someone asks not to be labelled cis (e.g. because they have a 'gender identity' per se, such that there's nothing to be aligned/misaligned with their sex), would you respect that?

 

[19force8]

If someone asks not to be labelled cis (e.g. because they have a 'gender identity' per se, such that there's nothing to be aligned/misaligned with their sex), would you respect that?

If someone asks not to be labelled trans (eg because they have medically changed their sex to align with their gender) would you respect that?

 

[bimble]

Why should others have the right to define who you are while you have no say in the matter?

I don't think 'reality' enters into it when we're talking about gender roles and idenities. Reality in these terms is nothing more or less than what we decide it is; just because one definition of something is the most commonly understood doesn't necessarily mean it represents objective fact.

What are my options then. I look like a woman and am treated as such, every day, even though I don't wear particularly feminine clothing though its more so when I do. If no longer want to live with that 'reality' of how the world at large perceives me (as that category called 'a woman') what to do - just declare that I personally reject gender / am 'a-gender'?

 

[smokedout]

What are my options then. I look like a woman and am treated as such, every day, even though I don't wear particularly feminine clothing though its more so when I do. If no longer want to live with that 'reality' of how the world at large perceives me (as that category called 'a woman') what to do - just declare that I personally reject gender / am 'a-gender'?

You could have done, legally at least, if the transgender enquiry's recommendations had become law. Sadly introducing the legal option to reject the gender binary is strongly opposed by people who call themselves gender critical feminists.

 

[Athos]

You could have done, legally at least, if the transgender enquiry's recommendations had become law. Sadly introducing the legal option to reject the gender binary is strongly opposed by people who call themselves gender critical feminists.

Lol. As if you can legislate people's fundamental understanding of the world.

 

[Athos]

If someone asks not to be labelled trans (eg because they have medically changed their sex to align with their gender) would you respect that?

What, they've changed chromosomes and reproductive structures? If they can do that, I'll call them what they like!

 

[andysays]

You could have done, legally at least, if the transgender enquiry's recommendations had become law. Sadly introducing the legal option to reject the gender binary is strongly opposed by people who call themselves gender critical feminists.

Given that gender is essentially a social process, I don't think the idea that one can simply declare oneself a particular gender makes sense, but even if we assume for the moment and for the sake od argument that an individual assertion might make sense or have some validity, there is surely an enormous difference between me stating that I no longer want to be regarded as the gender assigned to me at birth based on my biological sex and which I was subsequently socialised in, and me stating that I now want to be regarded as a gender different to the one assigned to me at birth based on my biological sex and which I was subsequently socialised in.

It's possible, I suppose, for me to give up my man-ness, but not for me to simply adopt a new different gender, eg woman-ness, however much I might "feel" that gender fits me better, and to automatically assume or insist that everyone else must accept my new adopted gender in any and all situations.

And to suggest otherwise is frankly nonsensical, whether we're talking in legal terms or any other.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What are my options then. I look like a woman and am treated as such, every day, even though I don't wear particularly feminine clothing though its more so when I do. If no longer want to live with that 'reality' of how the world at large perceives me (as that category called 'a woman') what to do - just declare that I personally reject gender / am 'a-gender'?

Some people do exactly that. Doesn't mean people will understand where they're coming from.

When I said the reality of gender is what we decide it is, I meant as a community or a society or a species. I didn't mean to suggest that thinking or feeling or being something as an individual makes that real for you and everyone around you.

 

[TopCat]

With 'cis' it seems to be the word itself rather than the actual meaning of that word which people object to, or possibly the very fact of their being a word that means what 'cis' means.

Considering 'cis' is the antonym of 'trans' even in contexts unrelated to gender, it would seem to be as neutral and non-loaded as any word can be. Cis wasn't invented by liberal snowflakes last week as a stick with which to beat the downtrodden majority, it actually predates the English language by millennia.

This is hypocrtical bullshit. I dont like being labelled. Fuck justifying the label with some bullshit. Heard it before with handicapped, half caste, bi sexual, mixed race ad infinitum.

 

[Athos]

I didn't mean to suggest that thinking or feeling or being something as an individual makes that real for you and everyone around you.

I'm confused about what your position. Do you think that an individual thinking or feeling themself to be a woman makes them a woman, or not?

 

[smokedout]

It's possible, I suppose, for me to give up my man-ness, but not for me to simply adopt a new different gender, eg woman-ness, however much I might "feel" that gender fits me better, and to automatically assume or insist that everyone else must accept my new adopted gender in any and all situations.

And to suggest otherwise is frankly nonsensical, whether we're talking in legal terms or any other.

And yet if you presented in the other gender, and appeared to 'pass' then that's exactly what would happen because people don't check genitalia or chromosones before gendering someone.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm confused about what your position. Do you think that an individual thinking or feeling themself to be a woman makes them a woman, or not?

It's not about what I think is it? I'm talking about how gender and identity are perceived by society in general.

 

[andysays]

And yet if you presented in the other gender, and appeared to 'pass' then that's exactly what would happen because people don't check genitalia or chromosones before gendering someone.

Clearly many transgender people do present in the other gender, and do appear to 'pass' in many contexts, but equally some do not "pass" for whatever reason.

But you appear to be suggesting that merely declaring oneself to be a different gender is sufficient, in your view, for one to be universally and unquestioningly accepted as the gender contrary to that assigned at birth based on biological sex and which one was subsequently socialised in.

And I note that you've omitted an important part of my previous comment, about the difference between declaring oneself no longer wishing to be viewed as something and declaring oneself now wanting to be viewed as something contrary to what one was previously.

 

[kabbes]

The bit I struggle with is that a large part of identity (I was going to say "as much", but it's actually unclear if we are talking >50% or <50%) is about the identity imposed upon you by others rather than the identity you adopt for yourself. Identity is a two-way relational thing, not a personal closed space. At the extreme where one simply declares for a different gender without any other change, our highly gender-differentiated society will still carry on treating you as if you are the original gender, which means the relational identity will not, in reality, have changed. If you appear to be a man, the assumptions made about you and the interpretations of your behaviour will still be those made of men. And vice versa if you appear to be a woman. It is literally impossible for you to assume the identity of a man, for example, if third parties engaging with you do so with the relational behaviours they would normally apply to a woman. Indeed, this is also a nutshell view of why women continue to find it so hard to obtain equality despite legal enforcement of that equality.

 

[Athos]

It's not about what I think is it? I'm talking about how gender and identity are perceived by society in general.

What do you think, though, about the question I asked you?

 

[smokedout]

Clearly many transgender people do present in the other gender, and do appear to 'pass' in many contexts, but equally some do not "pass" for whatever reason.

But you appear to be suggesting that merely declaring oneself to be a different gender is sufficient, in your view, for one to be universally and unquestioningly accepted as the gender contrary to that assigned at birth based on biological sex and which one was subsequently socialised in.

If that declaration is sincerely held, and if the person making it feels the need to live in a gender that is different to the one assigned at birth to be a whole, happy and functional person, then I don't see any reason why the legal system cannot accommodate it - particularly as if they present in the other gender, whether they pass or not, most people will socially accommodate it. This is a social transition that has already largely taken place.

And I note that you've omitted an important part of my previous comment, about the difference between declaring oneself no longer wishing to be viewed as something and declaring oneself now wanting to be viewed as something contrary to what one was previously.

Some people identify as a-gender, or non-binary, and some people identify as transgender, the recent committee report supported both groups being protected from discrimination - at present only transpeople are. I'm not really sure what you mean by what is the difference between the two other than the obvious.

 

[Athos]

If that declaration is sincerely held...

What mechanism do you propose for establishing good faith?

 

[weepiper]

So trans rights doesn't mean pushing women out of women's spaces, huh?

She was asked to leave because Lily Madigan was also there and apparently 'felt unsafe'

 

[Treacle Toes]

Who is she? What is the history between them?