Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Athos]

I thought gender was socially constructed *by definition*.

Of course it is. Which is why the concept of 'gender identity' becomes necessary to explain transness.

 

[belboid]

Fine. I'll drop the point about incongruence, as it seems it was a poor way of expressing it my central point i.e. that 'cis doesn't mean 'not trans'. To many who have an interest in applying the label 'cis to those who don't define themselves that way - effectively meta-misgendering - that's a controversial point, it seems.

but the people who define themselves as agender are very few. You can completely reject gender stereotypes and be cis.

 

[8ball]

Of course it is. Which is why the concept of 'gender identity' becomes necessary to explain transness.

'Gender identity' could have different definitions, it seems to me.

Could be just the gender you are assigned.
Could be an internal identification or discomfort with the roles and expectaton of the assignment.
Could be something you claim as a response to the above.

etc.

 

[Athos]

'Gender identity' could have different definitions, it seems to me.

Could be just the gender you are assigned.
Could be an internal identification or discomfort with the roles and expectaton of the assignment.
Could be something you claim as a response to the above.

etc.

It seems to be used in a flexible (instrumental?) way, without any consensus about a coherent definition, despite its centrality to this issue. In fact, there seems to be an active resistance to women's efforts to unpack the term.

 

[Athos]

but the people who define themselves as agender are very few. You can completely reject gender stereotypes and be cis.

I agree with both of those points (neither of which undermine mine).

 

[iona]

I feel like people are confusing gender with gender roles again. It's perfectly possible to reject the latter but not the former.

I can only speak for myself here but my choosing to transition had fuck-all to do with gender roles or stereotypes or societal pressures and expectations. I think it's all a load of crap, but that's a separate issue and has nothing to do with my gender and whether I'm trans or cis.

I've always understood cis/trans as just describing the relationship between your gender and what you were assigned at birth, not how you feel about the shit that comes with it.

 

[co-op]

.

 

[co-op]

I've always understood cis/trans as just describing the relationship between your gender and what you were assigned at birth, .

Isn't the gender what is assigned?

 

[Athos]

iona What is gender other than "the shit that goes with it", though? What is 'gender' other than an externally imposed, socially constructed set of expectations? When you talk of your gender, what do you mean? Is it something innate to you, that exists independently of your biological sex? And independently of the way society creates gender categories, and would, ordinarily, place you in one of them according to sex? Where does 'gender identity' fit in? And what is it?

Sorry, that's a lot of questions. Don't want to sound demanding, and it's cool if you don't want to answer them, of course (particularly if to do so would upset you/exacerbate dysphoria). But I'm interested in, and struggle to coherently conceptualise, this illusive quality of 'gender identity' - what it is that people identify with, if not sex or socially constructed norms.

 

[iona]

Isn't the gender what is assigned?

Assigned at birth, generally based on observable primary sex characteristics and the assumption that that person's sex and gender will match (ie they'll be cisgender), yes. Sometimes they don't though, so people have a gender that doesn't match what they were assigned (ie are transgender).

At least that's how I understand it. I'm not the most academic person mind and some of this still confuses the shit out of me tbh.

 

[iona]

Athos I'm happy to answer as best I can, but A) it's going to take a while coz I only have a phone to type on; B) I can only answer for myself and everyone experiences things differently and C) I can't promise to explain my own experiences in a way that make sense to anyone else. E2a and D) I wouldn't know a marxist materialist dialectic if you smacked me round the face with one, so I can't frame anything in those terms.

 

[Athos]

Athos I'm happy to answer as best I can, but A) it's going to take a while coz I only have a phone to type on; B) I can only answer for myself and everyone experiences things differently and C) I can't promise to explain my own experiences in a way that make sense to anyone else. E2a and D) I wouldn't know a marxist materialist dialectic if you smacked me round the face with one, so I can't frame anything in those terms.

Understood. I'm grateful. Look forward to reading it.

 

[Pickman's model]

but the people who define themselves as agender are very few.

and they're often very private people, hidden agenders you might say

 

[co-op]

Assigned at birth, generally based on observable primary sex characteristics and the assumption that that person's sex and gender will match .

It's usually a reasonable assumption if you make the social taboos for failing to match it violent and unpleasant enough.

 

[8ball]

I feel like people are confusing gender with gender roles again.

Very probably. I just figured gender roles were the behavioural expectations which get put in each gender's "container", which then gets matched to a person's biological sex at birth. Ie. gender, on one level, is a category type that the roles go into, pretty much. So the 'male' gender gets a bunch of traits that then get called 'masculine' and vice versa. Then we get to enforce it by rewarding people who best match the roles. Especially in the case of the favoured gender.

The other levels, and how an 'internal gender identity' works is something I don't have a good handle on, so would also be interested in your thoughts on Athos' questions too.

 

[spanglechick]

Something I have noticed here recently, though may just be anecdata, is that among the cis women who have most concerns about the access trans women have to womanhood (in its varied situations), there is a high prevalence of dissatisfaction with what being gender-female* means.

As I've said before, I couldn't be more passionately happy with my gender, even though I'm unhappy about the myriad social and cultural oppressions women face. I'm angry about the gender roles, but it doesn't make me one micron closer to wishing I was a man. I feel enormously lucky to have this strong gender ID, by the way. I suspect it makes my perception of self less complicated.

But I wonder if people whose unhappiness with gender roles leads to more ambivalence about their gender identity, find it harder to see why anyone would identify as female if they didn't have to. And perhaps make them more mistrustful of the motives of some trans women.

*edit. The gender word may be "feminine", but that word clearly has a stronger, more culturally defined meaning. In fact, "feminine" is , is say, about gender roles rather than gender identity. I'm not feminine, but my gender is 10% on the distaff side.

 

[Athos]

But I wonder if people whose unhappiness with gender roles leads to more ambivalence about their gender identity, find it harder to see why anyone would identify as female if they didn't have to. And perhaps make them more mistrustful of the motives of some trans women.

I think that's right, if only because many of them don't conceive of the distinction between gender roles and gender identity.

 

[8ball]

Something I have noticed here recently, though may just be anecdata, is that among the cis women who have most concerns about the access trans women have to womanhood (in its varied situations), there is a high prevalence of dissatisfaction with what being gender-female* means.

As I've said before, I couldn't be more passionately happy with my gender, even though I'm unhappy about the myriad social and cultural oppressions women face. I'm angry about the gender roles, but it doesn't make me one micron closer to wishing I was a man. I feel enormously lucky to have this strong gender ID, by the way. I suspect it makes my perception of self less complicated.

But I wonder if people whose unhappiness with gender roles leads to more ambivalence about their gender identity, find it harder to see why anyone would identify as female if they didn't have to. And perhaps make them more mistrustful of the motives of some trans women.

That’s quite interesting. I suspect my gender ID is more towards the middle than yours, even though I’ve been told having autistic traits is linked to my having an ‘extreme male brain’ (which I’m personally a little sceptical about - I’ve never been much good at ‘being a bloke’).

<edited out second part of response due to misreading a word in your post, soz>

 

[8ball]

I think that's right, if only because many of them don't conceive of the distinction between gender roles and gender identity.

I’m a bit foggy on the ‘sense of gender identity’ and what it means myself tbf. Not sure whethet it relates to a sense of belonging based on formative experiences - might be something deeper going on too.

 

[bimble]

I think your post’s interesting spanglechick , will be pondering.

 

[J Ed]

Jess Phillips come out in favour of the North Carolina GOP position of ensuring the territorial integrity of the two genders.

 

[Thora]

Something I have noticed here recently, though may just be anecdata, is that among the cis women who have most concerns about the access trans women have to womanhood (in its varied situations), there is a high prevalence of dissatisfaction with what being gender-female* means.

As I've said before, I couldn't be more passionately happy with my gender, even though I'm unhappy about the myriad social and cultural oppressions women face. I'm angry about the gender roles, but it doesn't make me one micron closer to wishing I was a man. I feel enormously lucky to have this strong gender ID, by the way. I suspect it makes my perception of self less complicated.

But I wonder if people whose unhappiness with gender roles leads to more ambivalence about their gender identity, find it harder to see why anyone would identify as female if they didn't have to. And perhaps make them more mistrustful of the motives of some trans women.

I don't experience a gender identity that is separate from gender roles or being female.

 

[J Ed]

Still endlessly fascinated by the prevalence of the connection between anti-Corbyn sentiment and transphobia, I can't identify why it is so common.

 

[8ball]

Still endlessly fascinated by the prevalence of the connection between anti-Corbyn sentiment and transphobia, I can't identify why it is so common.

That’s not something I’ve noticed. I’ll have to check with the anti-Corbyns I know..

 

[Treacle Toes]

Still endlessly fascinated by the prevalence of the connection between anti-Corbyn sentiment and transphobia, I can't identify why it is so common.

For real? Where are you observing that?

 

[bimble]

simpler times.

 

[J Ed]

For real? Where are you observing that?

The New Statesman in general, Helen Lewis, the WEP in general, Criado Perez. Would be happy to come up with some more examples. It just seems to go together as a package.

 

[Treacle Toes]

simpler times.

Yeah because no feminist should/can enjoy being a girl/woman because to do so is this surrendered/hollywood/male centred/internalised/objectified/nonsense. This or nothing? Simpler? No inbewtween? Insightful.

 

[bimble]

Calm down. I didn’t say any of that. I just like the song.

 

[8ball]

Calm down. I didn’t say any of that. I just like the song.

I think the ‘calm down’ won’t go well, but I was also surprised by how much Rutita read into that.