Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[elbows]

Domestic violence *is* different to other violence. It comes with a large helping of long term emotional abuse, control and a fundamental context that make it hard for the victim to escape. DV is a particular kind of evil, and common enough - let's not diminish it by claiming any physical assault on a woman is dv. It isn't.

The phrase 'abuse of intimacy' sprung to mind when I read that.

What happened - and exactly what happened is yet to be determined - but if you take a worst case scenario, what happened was bad enough in its own right. It doesn't need hyperbole.

Yes. It's not just issues of hyperbole here though, its what happens when this sort of thing is seen as political violence. I am not well read on political violence or whether there are any well-known theories about where boundaries often sit regarding things like attempts to justify the violence. All I know is there are some obvious and not terribly controversial examples where we would tend to find people celebrating the footsoldiers of certain specific political movements getting a good hiding. Away from these more obvious examples where plenty of people are prepared to assume that people will cheer, for examples, fascists who were looking for trouble finding it and losing, or violent resistance to state violence, I dont see all that much routine discussion about where people set the limits. I assume people must have earnest discussions about this when deciding whether their campaign/movement should distance itself from the violent incident and what support, if any, to provide those facing legal action over events. But I've never been privy to such a discussion myself, and am quite ignorant.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You are seriously asking me if I personally am extending the methods of militant anti fascism to other groups now?

I don’t think you have ever been a militant anti fascist but you appear to be supporting the tactic of physical opposition moving out of that sphere.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Are you really this stupid? I know that Magnus is only pretending to be because he thinks it helps him make a point, but I’m a little worried that you might sincerely think this.

I'm not even slightly arsed about what you think about me, so you can save your worry and keep shouting your angry, unhelpful, divisive arguments.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I don’t think you have ever been a militant anti fascist but you appear to be supporting the tactic of physical opposition moving out of that sphere.

Where did I express that, or any, view on the subject?

All I’ve said about Sisters Uncut is that: (a) it’s funny that the internet TERFs, as they isolate themselves further from the wider feminist movement, are now claiming other feminist groups are MRAs, (b) it’s depressingly predictable that these genitally obsessed weirdos would decide that an anti cuts groups called “Uncut” were referring to dicks and (c) there’s no inherent contradiction in treating domestic violence differently from some other violent incident. Every other opinion of mine that you are arguing with is one that you’ve invented yourself.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Where did I express that, or any, view on the subject?

All I’ve said about Sisters Uncut is that: (a) it’s funny that the internet TERFs, as they isolate themselves further from the wider feminist movement, are now claiming other feminist groups are MRAs, (b) it’s depressingly predictable that these genitally obsessed weirdos would decide that an anti cuts groups called “Uncut” were referring to dicks and (c) there’s no inherent contradiction in treating domestic violence differently from some other violent incident. Every other opinion of mine that you are arguing with is one that you’ve invented yourself.

I haven’t invented you not condemning the attack and supporting the supporters, have I?

 

[sheothebudworths]

I haven’t invented you not condemning the attack and supporting the supporters, have I?

That simply equalling not pacifism.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I haven’t invented you not condemning the attack and supporting the supporters, have I?

As I haven’t expressed any view of the rights and wrongs of the incident, yes you’ve done exactly that.

For some reason you seem very keen to argue with Sisters Uncut about their views. Have you considered joining the TERF weirdos in trying to contact them directly on twitter?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

As I haven’t expressed any view of the rights and wrongs of the incident, yes you’ve done exactly that.

For some reason you seem very keen to argue with Sisters Uncut about their views. Have you considered joining the TERF weirdos in trying to contact them directly on twitter?

I see you like calling me a weirdo which I can live with given those qualities causes you to rapidly back-pedal to the point you’ll have to start whatever argument you were making all over again.
So what was it?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I see you like calling me a weirdo which I can live with given those qualities causes you to rapidly back-pedal to the point you’ll have to start whatever argument you were making all over again.
So what was it?

Have you been drinking?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Have you been drinking?

Is this like dismissing opponents as mentally ill? Don’t you just love Leninists.
But to be clear, what is your position on political violence within what people consider to be ‘the left’?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But to be clear, what is your position on political violence within what people consider to be ‘the left’?

I’m generally against it, but I’m sure there are some exceptions that could arise. I’m also against attacking TERFs, a group on their way out of the left. I don’t even agree with entirely non violent attempts to get venues to cancel bigots meetings.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m generally against it, but I’m sure there are some exceptions that could arise.

And the event we’re discussing. For it or against it?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And the event we’re discussing. For it or against it?

The events are disputed and currently the subject of a court case. But as a broad principle I don’t think that transphobes, racists, sexists, homophobes etc should be dealt with by the same methods as actual fascists.

 

[19force8]

The events are disputed and currently the subject of a court case. But as a broad principle I don’t think that transphobes, racists, sexists, homophobes etc should be dealt with by the same methods as actual fascists.

Of course not, but if a black person were to thump a racist in a minor scuffle who here would support their prosecution? Or even condemn their actions?

What about a woman and a sexist, or a lesbian and a homophobe?

I think you can see where I'm going with this.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Of course not, but if a black person were to thump a racist in a minor scuffle who here would support their prosecution? Or even condemn their actions?

What about a woman and a sexist, or a lesbian and a homophobe?

I think you can see where I'm going with this.

So it’s fine to thump a transphobe even though you can be branded one for merely disagreeing with a trans person?

 

[19force8]

So it’s fine to thump a transphobe even though you can be branded one for merely disagreeing with a trans person?

So which side are you on in the other cases above?

 

[kabbes]

So which side are you on in the other cases above?

To state the obvious, it really does depend on circumstance. Being a racist does not make it open season for anybody to hit you.

 

[19force8]

To state the obvious, it really does depend on circumstance. Being a racist does not make it open season for anybody to hit you.

Obviously. I didn't say it did.

 

[19force8]

So it’s fine to thump a transphobe even though you can be branded one for merely disagreeing with a trans person?

And by the way, I like the way you reduce transphobia to "merely disagreeing with a trans person." So reminiscent of the attitude of entitled oppressors everywhere.

Clearly for you transphobia isn't a real thing like racism, sexism or homophobia.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

[

So which side are you on in the other cases above?

I don’t believe for a second that you go around life thumping every racist and sexist you happen upon. If you do, it’s rare, isn’t it?

And by the way, I like the way you reduce transphobia to "merely disagreeing with a trans person." So reminiscent of the attitude of entitled oppressors everywhere.

Clearly for you transphobia isn't a real thing like racism, sexism or homophobia.

It isn’t me throwing transphobe/terf about with gay abandon as has happened on this very thread. Presumably all those who’ve been called it are fair game?

 

[19force8]

I don’t believe for a second that you go around life thumping every racist and sexist you happen upon. If you do, it’s rare, isn’t it?

You haven't answered my question. This is typical of the little games you play on here - you want others to answer your set up questions, but you try to dodge any question asked of you.

So once again. If a black person [or a woman or a lesbian] thumps a racist [sexist or homophobe] in the course of a scuffle engendered by their racist [sexist or homophobic] behaviour would you support their prosecution?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You haven't answered my question. This is typical of the little games you play on here - you want others to answer your set up questions, but you try to dodge any question asked of you.

So once again. If a black person [or a woman or a lesbian] thumps a racist [sexist or homophobe] in the course of a scuffle engendered by their racist [sexist or homophobic] behaviour would you support their prosecution?

This isn’t even what happened, you’re being very dishonest here. What happened was a group of feminists organised an open debate which a group of trans activists got shut down. When the feminists met at a redirection point to go to a new venue they were attacked. At speakers corner of all places.
To justify the attack the trans activists labelled the women ‘fascists’ - completely redefining the meaning of the word. And now you’re trying to compare it with someone reacting to racist/sexist/homophobic abuse.

 

[19force8]

So you would support the prosecution?

 

[19force8]

I didn't draw the comparison with racist, sexist or homophobic abuse Nigel Irritable did. You liked his post so I sort of assumed you agreed with his point.

 

[bimble]

Do you think that standing up for the right to punch terfs is going to help achieve something good? I think it will do the opposite of what folk like these below hope.

 

[19force8]

Do you think that standing up for the right to punch terfs is going to help achieve something good? I think it will do the opposite of what folk like these below hope.
View attachment 127569

Same deal as Magnus McGinty

You answer my question and then I'll answer yours.

 

[bimble]

I think violence against actual fascists is useful and necessary. I support the prosecution in the case of "the she wolf".

 

[19force8]

I think violence against actual fascists is useful and necessary. I support the prosecution in the case of "the she wolf".

Of course you do. And if the same situation had arisen over racism, sexism or homophobia?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I didn't draw the comparison with racist, sexist or homophobic abuse Nigel Irritable did. You liked his post so I sort of assumed you agreed with his point.

I was addressing the points you made in post #8681

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Of course you do. And if the same situation had arisen over racism, sexism or homophobia?

Don’t forget that an upping of the ante isn’t one way traffic.