Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[pengaleng]

Exactly. I haven't met a transgender person I was attracted to yet, as I haven't met many. It's a bridge you can only cross when you come to it.

well thats it, I talked a lot about this shit in therapy

oh and i have and i probably would sleep with em and i see em as however they present themselves

 

[Treacle Toes]

Guess that's a no then. So, transwomen are women until it comes to men wanting to have sex when actually they aren't women.

Glad we've cleared that up

How you have imagined smokedout 's post to mean anything of the sort is beyond me. Make you opinion known by all means but this nonsense reading of his post is bizarre.

 

[Pickman's model]

omfg my roast is ready soon and this just got the sickest it's ever been

We'll pause the thread till you're done

 

[bimble]

I used to know this creepy guy who paid to sleep with 'pre -op trans women'.Didn't mean he though they were women.

 

[Pickman's model]

How you have imagined smokedout 's post to mean anything of the sort is beyond me. Make you opinion known by all means but this nonsense reading of his post is bizarre.

Yeh, it's step away from the keyboard time at trashy towers

 

[Treacle Toes]

I used to know this creepy guy who paid to sleep with 'pre -op trans women'.Didn't mean he though they were women.

It's the crude gender spectrum graphic presented as important FACT again. Fucking hell.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I used to know this creepy guy who paid to sleep with 'pre -op trans women'.Didn't mean he though they were women.

Excellent contribution, is this a cunt-out?

 

[Pickman's model]

I used to know this creepy guy who paid to sleep with 'pre -op trans women'.Didn't mean he though they were women.

Grand

 

[Treacle Toes]

Excellent contribution, is this a cunt-out?

It's a tall tale is what it is.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But that is what's coming back you wally, the idea that Gender Is Innate. And unquestionable, and inside of us.

In fact there’s a huge range of ideological positions “coming back” from that movement, questions and answers which range across the spectrum of possible positions, and that very range has the effect of denaturalising everything and putting everything up for question. But you bigoted clowns aren’t capable of stepping back and looking at the wider effects of, for instance, over a quarter of California teens becoming “gender non conforming” and what that does to normative assumptions about gender of a sort that rely on being unquestioned. Instead you just want to reduce a complex social movement to some hapless trans woman who likes to wear high heels and lipstick. The social conservatives the TERFs functionally serve are not as blinkered and they are correctly treating the whole phenomenon as a fundamental threat.

In so far as TERFery has any impact on this movement it’s a negative one, by the way. By constantly attacking trans women and weaponising gender abolitionism against them, you succeed only in making the most radical end of gender nonconforming young people a little more cautious about developing and working out their analysis of gender because they don’t under any circumstances want to give succor to bigots. And all of them absolutely despise people who pick on trans women.

 

[trashpony]

How do you define gaslighting?

Telling people things that they know aren't true and keeping telling them that until they think their perception is wrong.
So: telling a woman that a man in a dress is actually a woman and that she's mad and crazy and bigoted and wrong for believing that += gaslighting.

But you don't believe this either. You've said (at least) a couple of times on this thread that transpeople have different experiences from men and women and that our experiences are not the same. Weirdly, no one has yelled TERF at you. I wonder why that is. I wonder why Nigel has not told you that you're a bigot. Or that kabbes, who's expressed some very gender critical views, hasn't had much criticism. Nigel hasn't called him a terf and a bigot at all although he's said some things that, if I wrote them, would get a page of boring crap from Nige.

 

[pengaleng]

Transwomen aren't women; transmen aren't men. If they were, we wouldn't have 7000 posts on this thread. There wouldn't be any discussion.

there is discussion because there is prejudice.

 

[trashpony]

Nigel Irritable - how does gender non-conforming work in those societies where women are cut and sold and raped?

 

[trashpony]

there is discussion because there is prejudice.

You can identify as a fucking unicorn for all I care. You're not one

 

[elbows]

there is discussion because there is prejudice.

And the prejudice became a good deal more open in this thread in recent weeks since phrases like 'bloke in a dress' started being thrown around more freely from certain quarters. A mask slipped.

 

[pengaleng]

You can identify as a fucking unicorn for all I care. You're not one

wow.

bitter much?

you aint lived my life, you dont know i shit rainbows.

 

[Pickman's model]

Telling people things that they know aren't true and keeping telling them that until they think their perception is wrong.
So: telling a woman that a man in a dress is actually a woman and that she's mad and crazy and bigoted and wrong for believing that += gaslighting.

But you don't believe this either. You've said (at least) a couple of times on this thread that transpeople have different experiences from men and women and that our experiences are not the same. Weirdly, no one has yelled TERF at you. I wonder why that is. I wonder why Nigel has not told you that you're a bigot. Or that kabbes, who's expressed some very gender critical views, hasn't had much criticism. Nigel hasn't called him a terf and a bigot at all although he's said some things that, if I wrote them, would get a page of boring crap from Nige.

Yeh. Well, like the beans and cheese thing I'm very much in a minority here with my view on gender and trans things. That and my argument doesn't revolve around other posters' choice of partner. And I've been something of a plague on both your houses person on the events at the bookfair. So I'm not surprised people aren't taking issue with me.

 

[smokedout]

Telling people things that they know aren't true and keeping telling them that until they think their perception is wrong.
So: telling a woman that a man in a dress is actually a woman and that she's mad and crazy and bigoted and wrong for believing that += gaslighting.

But you don't believe this either. You've said (at least) a couple of times on this thread that transpeople have different experiences from men and women and that our experiences are not the same. Weirdly, no one has yelled TERF at you. I wonder why that is. I wonder why Nigel has not told you that you're a bigot. Or that kabbes, who's expressed some very gender critical views, hasn't had much criticism. Nigel hasn't called him a terf and a bigot at all although he's said some things that, if I wrote them, would get a page of boring crap from Nige.

Nobody on this thread so far has come close to what you just did. That was just nasty bigoted playground shit and if you can't see that you really need to have a word with yourself.

 

[trashpony]

wow.

bitter much?

No, not bitter. You can identify as whatever you like but you can't change your sex.

 

[pengaleng]

No, not bitter. You can identify as whatever you like but you can't change your sex.

no one is saying thats possible though, jesus. woman isnt a sex.

 

[trashpony]

no one is saying thats possible though, jesus. woman isnt a sex.

woman = adult human female

 

[pengaleng]

ughhhh this again

 

[JimW]

In fact there’s a huge range of ideological positions “coming back” from that movement, questions and answers which range across the spectrum of possible positions, and that very range has the effect of denaturalising everything and putting everything up for question. But you bigoted clowns aren’t capable of stepping back and looking at the wider effects of, for instance, over a quarter of California teens becoming “gender non conforming” and what that does to normative assumptions about gender of a sort that rely on being unquestioned. Instead you just want to reduce a complex social movement to some hapless trans woman who likes to wear high heels and lipstick. The social conservatives the TERFs functionally serve are not as blinkered and they are correctly treating the whole phenomenon as a fundamental threat.

For me it's because it seems to be done in a very liberal way that focuses on gender as it impacts on the individual and that's partly because it hasn't listened to "boring old" 80s feminist analysis about how that was constructed on sex and its material consequences. Hope I'm wrong and the next stage is changes in child care roles and working patterns and all the rest but doesn't look like where it's going.
Maybe that denaturalisation you mention will lead on to that eventually as gender gets hollowed out but strikes me that there's also a strong chance of instead of just delinking some epiphenomena of gender from sex while not attacking the latter as a basis for discrimination etc precisely because you deny its role.

 

[smokedout]

woman = adult human female

woman = adult human female who men want to have sex with seems to be your actual definition.

 

[bimble]

It's the crude gender spectrum graphic presented as important FACT again. Fucking hell.

Ok. I mentioned it just in reference to ‘would you sleep with one then’ , which I think is irrelevant .

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And the prejudice became a good deal more open in this thread in recent weeks since phrases like 'bloke in a dress' started being thrown around more freely from certain quarters. A mask slipped.

Yes, that’s what’s usually lurking behind “just asking questions” TERFery.

 

[trashpony]

ughhhh this again

I know, tedious innit

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

For me it's because it seems to be done in a very liberal way

Which is currently a problem with the left in general.

 

[trashpony]

woman = adult human female who men want to have sex with seems to be your actual definition.

No, it just means adult human female who heterosexual adult males want to have sex with.

It's in response to lesbians feeling/being told that they're transphobic for not wanting to have sex with transwomen.

We can all fancy whoever we want to fancy but the cotton ceiling is most definitely a thing. Weirdly though, no one wants to push men's boundaries about who they want to have sex with. Not sure why that would be

 

[JimW]

Which is currently a problem with the left in general.

Yep. I'm a terrible critical thinker so not wrapping my head around this at any speed but have a horrible feeling it will go the route of e.g. formal racial equality in the US with an ongoing racist reality because it's not attacking the roots of what all these divisions serve, bit of mobility and window-dressing but fundamental inequalities remain, and given how intrinsic sex is to social reproduction perhaps even less of a material shift than with race.
ETA Which, like with other rights, is not to deny that a gain that makes someone's life better in the here and now isn't to be dismissed.