Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Pickman's model]

No, you're wrong: nobody is attacked for their 'gender identity' because whatever is is, it's something in their head: the reason trans males such as myself are attacked is because homophobic males view feminine males as inferior. It's rooted in homophobia, which itself is rooted in misogyny.



Not really. The point is you don't have to change your body to match your personality/



The dominant vector in transgender culture, what make's today's culture so different from the past, is that it posits everyone's 'gender identity' (that feeling by which one knows one is a man or a woman) is innate. There is a philosophical problem here in that none of us know how it feels to be anyone or anything other than ourselves: we are not a species of mind-readers.



The 'transgendered soul' is a belief, an ideology: all faiths, ideologies or beliefs are open to question, however should people be persecuted for their faiths? No. Note the Equality Act protects faith already.



It's a cultural identity, the effect though of gender as a cultural hierarchy means it's a two way process, and we are treated by others according to the rules of gender. We cannot escape this, as we cannot police the thoughts of others, so whether an 'agender identity' means something outside of the mind of the believer is very much moot.



The problem is that this won't happen because any approach other than 'gender affirmation' is being blocked. Affirmation has its own problems, it presupposes the etiology of trans is monolithic when it is not the case: the reasons a child may display a 'transgender identity' and the reasons a mature adult would do so, are fundamentally different. Treating these populations the same ignores this difference.



Yes, it needs an attempt made to make good law, the problem is law tends to be politically motivated and riddled with 'unintended consequences'. Solid legal definitions of 'male', 'female', 'sex', 'gender', 'woman' and 'man' would be a great start,

You're a trans male, so natal woman? There was me thinking you were a trans woman therefore natal man.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is happening now, which might possibly lead to some more legal clarity and official definitions of the words we are using?
Transgender woman sues over ordeal in male prison
Tara Hudson is sueing the MOJ for damages for sending her to a mens prison (where she spent a week before being transferred to a womens prison after a massive support campaign). She doesn't have a gender recognition certificate. Her lawyer says the case rests on the government 'denying her gender identity'. She is also demanding that the court make a determination that she's been discriminated against. 'Government lawyers insist that Hudson is legally a man'.

Yeh always good to let the state define stuff

 

[Miranda Yardley]

This case is important though, right? Unless they just reject it it’s raising the whole issue of self identification (w/o certificates).

Yes it does. The question is generally 'is that person, in the eyes of the law, entitled to be housed with women'. It's based on a risk assessment, to having not changed legal sex doesn't necessarily mean they'll be in a male prison, and having changed legal sex doesn't mean they would automatically be sent to a women's facility. I figure that in Hudson's case it would be down to whether Hudson, as someone who apparently has a number of convictions for physical violence and assault, poses a danger to women.

The risk assessment is supposed to be for the safety and well-being of the prisoner, and those who will be sharing space with that prisoner. I think it is good that there is an individual risk assessment done, rather than a 'one size fits all' homogeneous policy (which would not take into account the various different types of identities and behaviours covered by the term 'transgender'). I think such system would generally have a better outcome for the prisoner.

http://www.ppo.gov.uk/app/uploads/2...in_Transgender-prisoners_Final_WEB_Jan-17.pdf

I'd like to restate my belief that males who have convictions for sexual offences should not be allowed to change their legal sex.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes it does. The question is generally 'is that person, in the eyes of the law, entitled to be housed with women'. It's based on a risk assessment, to having not changed legal sex doesn't necessarily mean they'll be in a male prison, and having changed legal sex doesn't mean they would automatically be sent to a women's facility. I figure that in Hudson's case it would be down to whether Hudson, as someone who apparently has a number of convictions for physical violence and assault, poses a danger to women.

The risk assessment is supposed to be for the safety and well-being of the prisoner, and those who will be sharing space with that prisoner. I think it is good that there is an individual risk assessment done, rather than a 'one size fits all' homogeneous policy (which would not take into account the various different types of identities and behaviours covered by the term 'transgender'). I think such system would generally have a better outcome for the prisoner.

http://www.ppo.gov.uk/app/uploads/2...in_Transgender-prisoners_Final_WEB_Jan-17.pdf

I'd like to restate my belief that males who have convictions for sexual offences should not be allowed to change their legal sex.

whatever happened to your sexually violent transgender people, Miranda?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I always looks at cases like this and think to myself 'why aren't these people trying to improve conditions and reduce bullying in prisons overall'?

At the same time you regurgitate lies, which the rest of us have to look up and debunk. I really hope people stop listening to you here. You tell lie after lie after lie.

 

[NoXion]

Alright, so I've had a few skinfuls so please excuse me if this query is poorly formulated or otherwise off in some manner, but...

Why the fucking fuck does it matter what the fucking "theory" is behind why some people are trans?

There's no evidence whatsoever that "being trans" is the result of any kind of indisputably external influence, such as a parasitical infection, that could easily be dismissed as merely a symptom of some underlying pathology (if there was, you can bet that the bigots* would be trumpeting it to here and back). There is clearly some kind of disconnect between the expectations of society and the self-perception of the trans individual in question, and I see no good reason why one should generally come down on the side of society in this matter.

(*by which I mean not people who have concerns, but honest-to-goodness transphobes, who in my experience are overwhelmingly right-wing.)

I mean, we do all agree, at least in this thread, that males and females are just as valid as each other, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with people acting in ways that are atypical for their perceived gender? So what exactly is being argued about?

Yeah, I get that some people from the trans activist camp, as well as their opponents have said and done shitty things. But in both cases they're a vocal minority, more interested in virtue signalling within their respective cliques than in actually addressing the problem they're ostensibly concerned with, so both factions of that fractious minority are mostly irrelevant as far as I can see.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Alright, so I've had a few skinfuls so please excuse me if this query is poorly formulated or otherwise off in some manner, but...

Why the fucking fuck does it matter what the fucking "theory" is behind why some people are trans?

There's no evidence whatsoever that "being trans" is the result of any kind of indisputably external influence, such as a parasitical infection, that could easily be dismissed as merely a symptom of some underlying pathology (if there was, you can bet that the bigots* would be trumpeting it to here and back). There is clearly some kind of disconnect between the expectations of society and the self-perception of the trans individual in question, and I see no good reason why one should generally come down on the side of society in this matter.

(*by which I mean not people who have concerns, but honest-to-goodness transphobes, who in my experience are overwhelmingly right-wing.)

I mean, we do all agree, at least in this thread, that males and females are just as valid as each other, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with people acting in ways that are atypical for their perceived gender? So what exactly is being argued about?

Yeah, I get that some people from the trans activist camp, as well as their opponents have said and done shitty things. But in both cases they're a vocal minority, more interested in virtue signalling within their respective cliques than in actually addressing the problem they're ostensibly concerned with, so both factions of that fractious minority are mostly irrelevant as far as I can see.

The bit you put in bold is really what I have wanted to say all day. We'll never agree on the definition, that needs to be accepted. Or the treatment required, you may disagree with transitioning(I don't)as a method but it would have to take some brutal bastard to deny a person something they clearly so desperately want. Aaaaah!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

At the same time you regurgitate lies, which the rest of us have to look up and debunk. I really hope people stop listening to you here. You tell lie after lie after lie.

No mate. You're delusional.

 

[Pickman's model]

No mate. You're delusional.

Lbj may be a liberal but he's got you bang to rights

 

[NoXion]

The bit you put in bold is really what I have wanted to say all day. We'll never agree on the definition, that needs to be accepted. Or the treatment required, you may disagree with transitioning(I don't)as a method but it would have to take some brutal bastard to deny a person something they clearly so desperately want. Aaaaah!

For the record, I don't "agree" or "disagree" with transitioning in general, because I think that whether or not that is the right decision, depends entirely on the individual circumstances in question.

For those people worried that individuals transitioning may simply be reproducing society's gender expectations in the process, I ask them; how can trans individuals do any better? Individuals cannot control society's perceptions of gender. Until the day when society as a whole radically remodels its perception of the gender question, trans people are pretty much stuck. Society as a whole, not just trans individuals or feminists, has to move on in order for progress to be made. Until that time comes, it seems unfair to place the burden on trans people or enlightened feminists alone.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

For the record, I don't "disagree" or "disagree" with transitioning in general, because I think that whether or not that is the right decision, depends entirely on the individual circumstances in question.

.

Of course, I agree. I meant a general you not YOU.

 

[pengaleng]

Perhaps one of the problems is that anyone starting to read some gender critical blogs and websites will immediately come away with a huge amount of disinformation. They will be told it's been proved most transsexuals have a sexual fetish called autogynephilia. They will be told it's been proved that trans women commit violent offences at the same rate as men, they will be told a man who makes rapes jokes has called himself a woman and demanded a senior role in the Labour Party, that a trans indenitified male demanded Top Shop let men in their changing rooms and Top Shop complied because they were scared, that Jessica Winfield had to be moved from a women's prison because she was sexually harassing fellow inmates and that an NHS worker tried to force a woman to have a smear test against her wishes.

They will probably be shown lots of tweets from anonymous teenagers without any mention of the abuse and in the past violence that has come from the trans critical side, they will have the proposed new law completely misrepresented as meaning any man could just fill out a form and demand access to a womens refuge. And that one man in Canada pretended to be trans and sexually assaulted someone without any mention that this is the only time it has happened in the world, and that trans women have been accessing womens support services for years now without incident. They might even be shown websites like transcrime that list criminal offences committed by trans people as if this is representative, and be told huge numbers of children are being given drugs to stop puberty when in reality the number is tiny. They will be told studies showing rates of being victims of crime or suicide attempts by trans people have been debunked, and that a study has proved half of trans prisoners are sexual offenders. And on and on and on. None of these things are true on close inspection, and they represent the milder side of trans critical feminism, they might be told a lot worse.

And they will probably come out of it hating trans people, and repeating these myths, all of which have been repeated on this thread. And when trans people get upset and angry about what they recognise as a highly orchestrated propaganda campaign then their emotional and understandable reaction to that will be used against them to prove that trans people really are aggresive and nasty and refuse to have a debate. And then they will take the red pill and believe the oppressed is the oppressor and Sheila Jeffries and Venice Allan will congratulate themselves on a job well done. Same tactics that have been used against marginalised groups throughout history, and this time being used by people on the left.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Say it again!

 

[pengaleng]

The bit you put in bold is really what I have wanted to say all day. We'll never agree on the definition, that needs to be accepted. Or the treatment required, you may disagree with transitioning(I don't)as a method but it would have to take some brutal bastard to deny a person something they clearly so desperately want. Aaaaah!

it doesnt matter and tbh I dont care about whys

 

[Pickman's model]

Say it again!

What is it good for?

 

[pengaleng]

like seriously one of two things will happen in the future, science will either prove being trans is a natural condition of humanity or it'll prove it's not and whatever it ends up being then both sides need to think really hard as to how they will go about managing that situation, there might not ever be any answers, how about that one, if it stays like this you'll stagnate and if you dont adapt to your environment you will die.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

For those people worried that individuals transitioning may simply be reproducing society's gender expectations in the process, I ask them; how can trans individuals do any better? Individuals cannot control society's perceptions of gender.

But nobody has been making arguments against transitioning.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

But nobody has been making arguments against transitioning.

Miranda did and so did yon lassie in the hour long video, or at the very least said people didn't need to be doing it, my argument was essentially good luck with pushing that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No

No mate. You're delusional.

Nope. As one of those who has been fact checking your lies not delusional. Time you fucked off.

 

[JimW]

Alright, so I've had a few skinfuls so please excuse me if this query is poorly formulated or otherwise off in some manner, but...

Why the fucking fuck does it matter what the fucking "theory" is behind why some people are trans?

...

I'd not care either except as far as I can see there's also larger claims being made about gender and what it is and that affects everyone, and if I've understood it right, probably quite negatively, women in particular.
It's also been said that there are gender-critical trans people, which is good news, but as it stands it seems like the main thrust is based on the dodgy stuff like those trainers and their Powerpoint. If that's the message being given to cops and to kids in schools, i.e. is set to become some sort of orthodoxy, then it matters a lot.

 

[NoXion]

I'd not care either except as far as I can see there's also larger claims being made about gender and what it is and that affects everyone, and if I've understood it right, probably quite negatively, women in particular.
It's also been said that there are gender-critical trans people, which is good news, but as it stands it seems like the main thrust is based on the dodgy stuff like those trainers and their Powerpoint. If that's the message being given to cops and to kids in schools, i.e. is set to become some sort of orthodoxy, then it matters a lot.

Seems to me to be more of a problem with the ruling classes selecting those narratives which they think will be most useful to them, rather than anything to do with actual grassroots trans/feminist activists. You don't think it's accidental which narratives get presented to the enforcers of the ruling class, surely?

 

[JimW]

Seems to me to be more of a problem with the ruling classes selecting those narratives which they think will be most useful to them, rather than anything to do with actual grassroots trans/feminist activists. You don't think it's accidental which narratives get presented to the enforcers of the ruling class, surely?

No, of course not, but that's why it does seem legitimate to start worrying when we get into legislation and the chosen "community leaders", schools outreach and so on. Because it's ripe for just that sort of cherry-picking for what suits a very non-progressive establishment and might set things back in unintended ways.

 

[NoXion]

No, of course not, but that's why it does seem legitimate to start worrying when we get into legislation and the chosen "community leaders", schools outreach and so on. Because it's ripe for just that sort of cherry-picking for what suits a very non-progressive establishment and might set things back in unintended ways.

If I were to hazard a guess, it would be that the representatives chosen by state and capital to "represent" the trans/feminist elements of common society actually have little meaningful representation to said elements.

Divide and rule.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No mate. You're delusional.

I was pleased when you first turned up. I thought that you would provide an alternative perspective that we could test out.

But you've done nothing of the kind. Of smokedout's list of disinformation, a huge chunk has come from you. You are a dishonest billy bullshitter. You spread disinformation across this thread that requires others to do work to discredit. You contribute nothing except lies.

Fuck off.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

It's also been said that there are gender-critical trans people, which is good news, but as it stands it seems like the main thrust is based on the dodgy stuff like those trainers and their Powerpoint. .

It will seem like that when it's what gender critical feminists are challenging with no mention of alternatives aye. The Barbie power point is obvs ridiculous and not something I have seen often. The truscum debate was largely between identity theorists and medicalists in other words people who were arguing that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria must be present to be trans and that it is dangerous to lump in non conforming/cross dressing etc folks in as this eventually means the definition of transgender become meaningless, along with the definition for cis with the risk of people being denied access to healthcare since some are saying you don't need to transition in order to be trans. That obviously opens up a whole other can of worms and there are extremes within those two viewpoints but it's a good place to start to get an idea of the the range of thoughts on this subject.


ETA: Good summary here. I particularly like the closing statement. Is Dysphoria Necessary for Being Trans? The “Truscum” Debate

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I am on night shift if that sounded like gobbledegook

 

[weepiper]

Munroe Bergdorf, a trans woman, drumming up support for the Women's March London.
We have to not mention vaginas or uteruses at a women's protest march so as not to exclude people who were born with a male body who want to come too but inexplicably cannot cope with female biology being all in their faces now.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Intersectionalist in eye melting tweet shocker!

 

[bimble]

like seriously one of two things will happen in the future, science will either prove being trans is a natural condition of humanity or it'll prove it's not and whatever it ends up being then both sides need to think really hard as to how they will go about managing that situation, there might not ever be any answers, how about that one, if it stays like this you'll stagnate and if you dont adapt to your environment you will die.

What about all these genders though, will science be investigating them ?
Genderfluid Support

 

[krtek a houby]

Disagreement is being reframed as hate.

Referring to people as "trannies" is hateful. Would you agree or disagree?