Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Pickman's model]

I don't believe you're correct. I have not identified anyone. And the police issue a statement when someone is charged...

Identification utterly irrelevant, it's about guilt/innocence

 

[Athos]

The point about prisons is important as it appears to be an extant problem here and the government seems to have little appetite for dealing with a prison system that's pretty much on it's knees anyway. There's also a huge problem with how trans prisoners are accounted for within the system, a system which we know fails individuals with mental health problems (hence the ridiculously high prison suicide rate).

I think the consequences will likely be different, I hope you're familiar with my argument over why self-ID doesn't help transsexuals (which I keep saying again and again and is by far my biggest objection to the proposed law changes as they stand) and we have to remember Ireland has had the law for two years, with a population of around 1/14th that of the UK. I think also we have to allow for Ireland being culturally much more conservative than the UK anyway.

Yes, I understand your arguments about self-identification being anathema to the interrests of trans people. Also, I appreciate that what happens in prisons is important (albeit unlikly to affect the vast majority of either women or trans people). And ,I am familiar with the difficulties in meaningful international comparisons when other factors e.g. population size and social attitudes differ. But you've not really answered my question about substantive differences between the law in Irealand and the GRA if it's reformed as proposed. Are there any except the prohibition on transitioning whilst imprisoned? If not, what do you understand the consequences for women to have been in reland, and what/how do you extrapolate this to the UK (beyond the prison issue)?

 

[weepiper]

So one tweet, in the world, in the last month. The trans gestapo appears to be quite sluggish.

January

December

December again


I cba looking at any more of it, but you're not seeing it because you don't want to, not because it's not there.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not self-declared gender recognition has led to the consequences bigots claim it would. Which is the point you are fully aware was being made when you chose to dishonestly quote that sentence out of context. Strangely enough you have nothing to say about the actual experience of self-declared gender recognition one island over. A cynic might begin to think that you are more interested in nursing your bigotry than in assessing the truth of your claims.

And there it is again. The casual chucking about of the Bigotry label, because I dare to suggest that women might not be getting a great deal.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And there it is again. The casual chucking about of the Bigotry label, because I dare to suggest that women might not be getting a great deal.

It’s not casual. You’ve earned it.

As for whether women will get a bad deal, if you were actually interested in that question you would start by assessing actual consequences for women as they’ve occurred in countries in countries with self-declaration. Instead you prefer to repeat your paranoid fever dreams without making the slightest effort to measure your fears against actual experience.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It’s not casual. You’ve earned it.

As for whether women will get a bad deal, if you were actually interested in that question you would start by assessing actual consequences for women as they’ve occurred in countries in countries with self-declaration. Instead you prefer to repeat your paranoid fever dreams without making the slightest effort to measure your fears against actual experience.

 

[bimble]

They're not casual at all, the shouts of TERF and bigot, they are instrumental and designed to make people shut up.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You have commented on your opinion of their guilt, and referred to it as a violent attack by trans activists. Presuming the person had been charged when you posted that then that could leave you liable.

Really not sure I did do that.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I cba looking at any more of it, but you're not seeing it because you don't want to, not because it's not there.

Really is 'see no evil'...

 

[Ralph Llama]

It’s authoritarian, not fascist.

Not too far off IMO. If you supplant nationalism with ideological zeal your there!

I think I know some of these so-called `trans activists`. They are attention seeking, shit stirring little bastards TBH. They just want to make a career for themselves at our cost.

Interesting reflection on the book fair-

Of course I believe that all trans-identifying people have the right to live their lives free from harassment and abuse, as does everyone. But I note the double standards that while women are repeatedly told to explicitly affirm that right, there is never a requirement on those advocating for trans issues to acknowledge the level of violence and harassment that women face or to state their opposition to sexist abuse, or to challenge the outrageous statements made by some trans advocates which repeatedly deny women’s experiences and silence women’s voices. This is a power imbalance based on the long-held expectation in society that women should be subservient.

It is notable that a statement issued a few days ago, calling for groups to boycott the Bookfair in future, makes no mention of sexism or of women’s rights or for the provision of women-only meeting spaces.

There is no acknowledgement at all that women are subject to oppression, sexual violence and harassment on the basis of our sex. It appears that those who have signed the statement are in denial about women’s experiences in much the same way that the rest of society is. Only the recent and snowballing reports of sexual harassment and assault in Hollywood, parliament and via #MeToo [on social media] have started to awaken people to reality. It is time those who signed up acknowledged that reality too.

Taking a stand against bullying and censorship | Peace News

 

[Pickman's model]

Not too far off IMO. If you supplant nationalism with ideological zeal your there!

I think I know some of these so-called `trans activists`. They are attention seeking, shit stirring little bastards TBH. They just want to make a career for themselves at our cost.

Interesting reflection on the book fair-




Taking a stand against bullying and censorship | Peace News

Yeh? A career? Tell me more

 

[smokedout]

January

December

December again


I cba looking at any more of it, but you're not seeing it because you don't want to, not because it's not there.

To be fair I wasn't seeing it because Miranda said lady dick so those tweets didn't show up. But only one of those tweets seems to be aimed at trans critical radical feminists (and not at an individual specifically), one is aimed at some teenage boy who initiated sexual comments and the other is complaining about computer game developers.

It's hardly endemic and a search of girl dick reveals the phrase being used more as a way to sexually mock trans people than it is used to attack radical feminists.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Yeh? A career? Tell me more

Make waves at the cutting edge then write a book. Noticeable by their unsociable levels of competitiveness on every f**king issue. Go for it Pickmans !

 

[Red Cat]

Watch out for those paranoid fever dreams.

 

[Pickman's model]

Make waves at the cutting edge then write a book. Noticeable by their unsociable levels of competitiveness on every f**king issue. Go for it Pickmans !

What did you write a book about, Ralph?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They're not casual at all, the shouts of TERF and bigot, they are instrumental and designed to make people shut up.

TERF is an accurate description stemming from debates within Radical Feminism, ie a term invented by non transphobic radfems to distinguish themselves from anti trans radfems. You are right though that describing bigots as bigots isn’t done casually any more than it’s done casually to racists or homophobes. In all cases it’s a statement that the bigots are beyond the bounds of reasonable debate and that their views need not be accommodated in any way.

 

[Ralph Llama]

@Pickmans
*reclines next to pool
Well, darling, I made waves back in 92 by suggesting the CJA was a great idea and selling RaveTM to Sony/EMI. Got sponsorship and my own Daily Mail column...sssssssall gravy

 

[bimble]

Watch out for those paranoid fever dreams.

Hysteria by any other name. It's probably something to do with our ovaries going walkabout, making us confused.

 

[Pickman's model]

@Pickmans
*reclines next to pool
Well, darling, I made waves back in 92 by suggesting the CJA was a great idea and selling RaveTM to Sony/EMI. Got sponsorship and my own Daily Mail column...sssssssall gravy

i see. you're yesterday's man

 

[bimble]

it’s a statement that the bigots are beyond the bounds of reasonable debate and that their views need not be accommodated in any way.

You're not refusing to have a conversation you're just unable to do so, all you can do is repeat the same idea in every single post, blindly. The conversation will happen, without you, because there are plenty of women who will not be silenced by your slurs.

 

[smokedout]

They're not casual at all, the shouts of TERF and bigot, they are instrumental and designed to make people shut up.

This conversation keeps returning to this, despite almost universal agreement that there has been abusive behaviour on both sides. I do not believe though that there is an orchestrated campaign to silence women, I think there is a vicious fight between some trans activists and some radical feminists and I see no sign of those feminists being silenced. People on here usually laugh at a group claiming to be silenced from the pages of the national press.

And seeing the enormous amount of abuse heaped on trans people by both trans critical feminists, but also by the conservative right, alt right, actual fascists, evangelicals and all the other forces ranged against them it is perhaps understandable why such a spiky response has developed. 1,500 hate crimes recorded against transgender people last year, how many radical feminists attacked for their views? Who is being silenced and attacked here, because if you look at the picture as a whole it looks like it's trans people, and those attacks are often violent. It is in this context that this row is happening.

 

[Pickman's model]

TERF is an accurate description stemming from debates within Radical Feminism, ie a term invented by non transphobic radfems to distinguish themselves from anti trans radfems. You are right though that describing bigots as bigots isn’t done casually any more than it’s done casually to racists or homophobes. In all cases it’s a statement that the bigots are beyond the bounds of reasonable debate and that their views need not be accommodated in any way.

how comforting to the people who decide bigots are bigots

 

[bimble]

This conversation keeps returning to this, despite almost universal agreement that there has been abusive behaviour on both sides. I do not believe though that there is an orchestrated campaign to silence women, I think there is a vicious fight between some trans activists and some radical feminists and I see no sign of those feminists being silenced. People on here usually laugh at a group claiming to be silenced from the pages of the national press.

And seeing the enormous amount of abuse heaped on trans people by both trans critical feminists, but also by the conservative right, alt right, actual fascists, evangelicals and all the other forces ranged against them it is perhaps understandable why such a spiky response has developed. 1,500 hate crimes recorded against transgender people last year, how many radical feminists attacked for their views? Who is being silenced and attacked here, because if you look at the picture as a whole it looks like it's trans people, and those attacks are often violent. It is in this context that this row is happening.

I understand the context. I just see it from a different position from yours. Your claims upthread that abuse online towards 'terfs' is rare are just mindboggling to me, because I see it all the time, we do not hang out in the same places clearly.

There's a meeting tomorrow in Manchester to discuss current issues incl self-identification and what that might mean for people born with vaginas.
This below is the info about the meeting.



They've now said it'll be in a bigger venue because of the amount of people wanting to attend (its free) but the location is being kept secret to avoid, you know, trouble.
Why can we not announce the location of this meeting freely?

 

[Pickman's model]

This conversation keeps returning to this, despite almost universal agreement that there has been abusive behaviour on both sides. I do not believe though that there is an orchestrated campaign to silence women, I think there is a vicious fight between some trans activists and some radical feminists and I see no sign of those feminists being silenced. People on here usually laugh at a group claiming to be silenced from the pages of the national press.

And seeing the enormous amount of abuse heaped on trans people by both trans critical feminists, but also by the conservative right, alt right, actual fascists, evangelicals and all the other forces ranged against them it is perhaps understandable why such a spiky response has developed. 1,500 hate crimes recorded against transgender people last year, how many radical feminists attacked for their views? Who is being silenced and attacked here, because if you look at the picture as a whole it looks like it's trans people, and those attacks are often violent. It is in this context that this row is happening.

as i said on the bookfair thread, people have a right to hand out leaflets at the bookfair. they must though expect to be challenged by people who might disagree. but calling people ugly terf cunt doesn't really cut the mustard for someone trying to make a serious point. and stealing and burning a bookfair banner's the act of a spoilt brat. yeh, concerns about the government's proposals should be aired and discussed. but they're not going to get the te viewpoint listened to by the legislators if all they do is have endless 'net wars with trans people. what do terfs want to achieve, having a pop at trans people or preventing the passage of a measure they abhor?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You're not refusing to have a conversation you're just unable to do so, all you can do is repeat the same idea in every single post, blindly. The conversation will happen, without you, because there are plenty of women who will not be silenced by your slurs.

You’ve already lost. Your views aren’t welcome anywhere the left or the feminist or lgbt movements meet. People with your views are in the process of being driven out of the Labour Party. You can’t meet in public without protests. You are pariahs. The only role you have left is acting as useful idiots for the Tory right. Even your own boyfriend has come to the conclusion that you are a bigot.

I don’t think that being hated and ignored will shut up mean spirited close minded bigots who delight in being cruel to an oppressed group, nor will it change their views. It hasn’t done that to homophobes after all. But what it will do - what it’s already doing - is reduce you to impotent howling on the margins. I realize that you resent being told this, but you are already, at some level, aware that this is happening. You should get used to it. Comforting yourself with the idea that others just can’t answer your very convincing arguments is a good start.

 

[smokedout]

I understand the context. I just see it from a different position from yours. Your claims upthread that abuse online towards 'terfs' is rare are just mindboggling to me, because I see it all the time, we do not hang out in the same places clearly.

I'm not denying or defending the abuse. What I wanted to challenge was yet another misrepresentation that this was often sexual in nature - the suck my girl dick claim. I do not think this is common, certainly not as common as trans people being accused of doing it. And it's just one more drip drip attack that aims to portray trans women as sexually predatory men.

There's a meeting tomorrow in Manchester of self-defining gender critical feminists, to discuss current issues incl self-identification and what that might mean for people born with vaginas. The location is being kept secret to avoid, you know, trouble. Why can they not announce their meeting freely?

Probably because either they don't want a protest or don't want the venue to pull out. The organisation behind that meetings has previously hosted speakers who want to morally mandate transsexuality out of existence. I can understand why trans activists feels its a legitimate group to protest.

 

[bimble]

You’ve already lost. Your views aren’t welcome anywhere the left or the feminist or lgbt movements meet. People with your views are in the process of being driven out of the Labour Party. You can’t meet in public without protests. You are pariahs. The only role you have left is acting as useful idiots for the Tory right. Even your own boyfriend has come to the conclusion that you are a bigot.

I don’t think that being hated and ignored will shut up hateful close minded bigots or change their views. It hasn’t done that to homophobes after all. But what it will do - what it’s already doing - is reduce you to impotent howling on the margins. I realize that you resent being told this, but you are already, at some level, aware that this is happening. You should get used to it. Comforting yourself with the idea that others just can’t answer your very convincing arguments is a good start.

Yes, Nigel.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Fucking hell...calling someone a nazi/ nazi youth now? I don't agree with all NIgel says but this is a bit fucking rich given you have tried the anti-semite argument on me recently for calling you a princess even though it had nothing to do with your Jewish heritage. This is the kind of nonsense that made me think of you that way actually. Really fucking spoilt.

 

[bimble]

Leave the jews out of it please, it was just a pisstake on his 'tomorrow belongs to me' post.

 

[weepiper]

This conversation keeps returning to this, despite almost universal agreement that there has been abusive behaviour on both sides. I do not believe though that there is an orchestrated campaign to silence women, I think there is a vicious fight between some trans activists and some radical feminists and I see no sign of those feminists being silenced. People on here usually laugh at a group claiming to be silenced from the pages of the national press.

And seeing the enormous amount of abuse heaped on trans people by both trans critical feminists, but also by the conservative right, alt right, actual fascists, evangelicals and all the other forces ranged against them it is perhaps understandable why such a spiky response has developed. 1,500 hate crimes recorded against transgender people last year, how many radical feminists attacked for their views? Who is being silenced and attacked here, because if you look at the picture as a whole it looks like it's trans people, and those attacks are often violent. It is in this context that this row is happening.

Hate crimes? You want to talk hate crimes? What do you think rapes are? What do you think domestic abuse is? Sexual harassment? Catcalling? 140-odd born women a year killed by men in the UK, for years? (Counting Dead Women)
It's not recorded as 'hate crime' because it's so fucking endemic. And before you go 'yeah but they weren't all radical feminists', those 1500 hate crimes against transgender people were because of who they are, not their views.