Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[elbows]

Are you denying the existence of bisexual transsexuals?

Lets not leave any asexual transsexuals out of it either.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can we not agree then there are different types of transsexual, being the homosexual transsexual and non-homosexual transsexual, and each have differing trajectories towards transition?

yes, we can not agree

 

[pengaleng]

I'm not a black and white thinking individual.

Can we not agree then there are different types of transsexual, being the homosexual transsexual and non-homosexual transsexual

pretty black and white to me, textbook.

 

[smokedout]

No, HSTS. Lees is not typical of the HSTS.

Ok, and you are I suppose. I stand by my point.

You're still spending more time attacking the arguer than argument. Transactivism appears to me to be neoliberal, it's individualist not collectivist: there's broad application of the classic liberal doctrine of doing what you want with your life and your body, as long as no harm comes to others: there is no consideration given to the harm principle, which is a whole new rabbit-hole.

It's individualist to the extent that it impacts on individuals, but that does not mean that arguing for better medical treatment or increased rights for everybody who is gender variant is necessarily an individualist approach - because that would apply to everyone. Arguing for easy access to obtain a GRA so the process does not exclude people, or better treatment and shorter waiting lists so people are not forced into the private sector or abandoned is not taking an individualist approach, it's about demanding collective solutions to problems faced by a certain marginalised group and which could affect any of us if not directly then via people we care about.


I have grave concerns about how identity politics is now playing out and dominating radical politics. That is a problem both amongst some trans-activists and some radical feminists whose radicalism as far as I can see (in most cases) doesn't extend far beyond a gender free version of liberalism with all in inequalities and exploitation that involves. I would suggest if you want a gender free neoliberalism than the beginnings of that would look a lot like what is taking place amongst the younger generations.


But to take the demands of the trans enquiry - better socialised healthcare, better treatment in prisons, less fees and state bureacracy to change gender, an end to discrimination in work, housing and services for people who are non-binary or gender non-conforming - these are very much demands which will help working class trans people. And they are being opposed by a movement of often openly liberal middle class people, whose radicalism doesn't really extend beyond trans-exclusion and who are hijacking working class institutions, such as women's refuges, to attack working class trans people. Luckily those institutions have not played ball and are in the main becoming trans inclusive without problems or incidents.

This is not to undermine the concerns many women have. But those concerns and the discussion that needs to take place will not happen whilst some of the loudest voices on both sides engage in abuse. And to claim trans people refuse to even have this conversation because they don't want to share platforms with people like Julie Long and Venice Allan who are openly abusive to trans women is entirely disingenuous. The debate is ongoing on here for example, it has been difficult at times but remained reasonably civil because once those voices are removed from the equation then people feel safer opening up and discussing what can be intimate and very sensitive subjects. So sort your own side out perhaps, get rid of the bullies and open transphobes, learn some manners and don't provocatively misgender people and then those on the other side might be more inclined to tackle some of the more extreme rhetoric and behaviour that has come from trans activists. And if not at least you would have the high moral ground, which you really don't have at the moment.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Thanks. But pease would you explain the specifics of the differences? Because this seems a bit vague. And it's an important point. Whilst you know I don't think women's concerns should be dismissed, if there's relevant evidence regarding the likelihood of those fears becoming (or not becoming) a reality, it deserves to be explored in much more detail.

We pretty much have a single act (the EA 2010) which its;ef conflates sex and gender, and Ireland's own equalities legislation is set out in a load of different places depending on what it's for. A key difference between there and here as things stand (so we aren't talking hypotheticals) is that for prisoners, in the UK a GRC can be applied for and issued during a period of imprisonment and the prisoner moved to the female estate, in Ireland this cannot happen. (Interestingly, the Irish law is based upon the Argentinian law and both countries are being triumphed for being progressive on trans rights, yet both are very limiting over women's reproductive rights, which is why feminists will question how progressive these countries really are.)

 

[pengaleng]

prisoners

got any every-day examples, miranda? you know, the sort of shit most people would encounter

 

[trashpony]

This is in contrast to some radical feminists, usually the same ones who oppose trans people, who would rather attack working class women for making choices in a rigged and exploitative system than attack the system that forces the working class into these 'choices'.

I don't know a single feminist who attacks working class women for making economic choices in an exploitative patriarchy. I know plenty who attack the men who rape women through coercing them to have sex with them and the system that protects those men and encourages the trafficking of women to be bought and sold as commodities.

 

[pengaleng]

SWERFS trashy they do exist - sex worker exclusionary radical feminist

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Ok, and you are I suppose. I stand by my point.

Are you able to have a conversation without personalising it?

It's individualist to the extent that it impacts on individuals, but that does not mean that arguing for better medical treatment or increased rights for everybody who is gender variant is necessarily an individualist approach - because that would apply to everyone. Arguing for easy access to obtain a GRA so the process does not exclude people, or better treatment and shorter waiting lists so people are not forced into the private sector or abandoned is not taking an individualist approach, it's about demanding collective solutions to problems faced by a certain marginalised group and which could affect any of us if not directly then via people we care about.

Whatever 'better medical treatment' is, is moot. There is a dearth of evidence-based research. Even protocols on hormones are pretty much someone putting their finger in the air when assessing risk factors particularly over long-term use. As someone who has been on synthetic estrogen for a fair part of my life, this bothers me.

I have grave concerns about how identity politics is now playing out and dominating radical politics. That is a problem both amongst some trans-activists and some radical feminists whose radicalism as far as I can see (in most cases) doesn't extend far beyond a gender free version of liberalism with all in inequalities and exploitation that involves. I would suggest if you want a gender free neoliberalism than the beginnings of that would look a lot like what is taking place amongst the younger generations.

You don't understand what the 'radical' in 'radical feminism' means, and you don't seem to understand it is not a politically 'liberal' ideology, both of which makes me question any critique you may make on that ideology, as you appear to fundamentally misunderstand it.

But to take the demands of the trans enquiry - better socialised healthcare, better treatment in prisons, less fees and state bureacracy to change gender, an end to discrimination in work, housing and services for people who are non-binary or gender non-conforming - these are very much demands which will help working class trans people. And they are being opposed by a movement of often openly liberal middle class people, whose radicalism doesn't really extend beyond trans-exclusion and who are hijacking working class institutions, such as women's refuges, to attack working class trans people. Luckily those institutions have not played ball and are in the main becoming trans inclusive without problems or incidents.

Again you're pitching this as a dichotomy. You also seem to forget that the women's refuges and support charities were set up by working class women who set their remit.

This is not to undermine the concerns many women have. But those concerns and the discussion that needs to take place will not happen whilst some of the loudest voices on both sides engage in abuse. And to claim trans people refuse to even have this conversation because they don't want to share platforms with people like Julie Long and Venice Allan who are openly abusive to trans women is entirely disingenuous.

The trans lobby will not enter into any debate they cannot control. There is a long track record of this and the abuse and harassment of women, men and other trans people they disagree with. What you don't appear to understand is that the trans community is internally governed by fear. People are kept in check through threats of isolation, and rhetorical threats of physical and sexual violence are common.

The debate is ongoing on here for example, it has been difficult at times but remained reasonably civil because once those voices are removed from the equation then people feel safer opening up and discussing what can be intimate and very sensitive subjects. So sort your own side out perhaps, get rid of the bullies and open transphobes, learn some manners and don't provocatively misgender people and then those on the other side might be more inclined to tackle some of the more extreme rhetoric and behaviour that has come from trans activists. And if not at least you would have the high moral ground, which you really don't have at the moment.

I don't have a 'side', I speak for myself. I don't think there's anything I can do to make the trans community deal with its extreme rhetoric, because it's that deeply ingrained. 'Trans women' need to start listening to women, rather than just continuing to behave like entitled men.

 

[Pickman's model]

We pretty much have a single act (the EA 2010) which its;ef conflates sex and gender, and Ireland's own equalities legislation is set out in a load of different places depending on what it's for. A key difference between there and here as things stand (so we aren't talking hypotheticals) is that for prisoners, in the UK a GRC can be applied for and issued during a period of imprisonment and the prisoner moved to the female estate, in Ireland this cannot happen. (Interestingly, the Irish law is based upon the Argentinian law and both countries are being triumphed for being progressive on trans rights, yet both are very limiting over women's reproductive rights, which is why feminists will question how progressive these countries really are.)

Which brings me back to your sexually violent prisoners with grcs. Last time I checked you'd failed once, twice, thrice to produce the stats you told us were released last year by the government. You produced stuff but nothing that demonstrated your point. The prisoner you claimed had harassed fellow inmates turned out not to have done. And you've refused to address the issue ever since. Far from being ready to admit when you're wrong you shove your fingers in your ears and shout la la la.

 

[pengaleng]

I don't have a 'side', I speak for myself. I don't think there's anything I can do to make the trans community deal with its extreme rhetoric, because it's that deeply ingrained. 'Trans women' need to start listening to women, rather than just continuing to behave like entitled men.

oh dear

you speaking for yerself is WELL apparent, theres a reason i called you the only trans in the village, you entitled prick.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you able to have a conversation without personalising it?



Whatever 'better medical treatment' is, is moot. There is a dearth of evidence-based research. Even protocols on hormones are pretty much someone putting their finger in the air when assessing risk factors particularly over long-term use. As someone who has been on synthetic estrogen for a fair part of my life, this bothers me.



You don't understand what the 'radical' in 'radical feminism' means, and you don't seem to understand it is not a politically 'liberal' ideology, both of which makes me question any critique you may make on that ideology, as you appear to fundamentally misunderstand it.



Again you're pitching this as a dichotomy. You also seem to forget that the women's refuges and support charities were set up by working class women who set their remit.



The trans lobby will not enter into any debate they cannot control. There is a long track record of this and the abuse and harassment of women, men and other trans people they disagree with. What you don't appear to understand is that the trans community is internally governed by fear. People are kept in check through threats of isolation, and rhetorical threats of physical and sexual violence are common.



I don't have a 'side', I speak for myself. I don't think there's anything I can do to make the trans community deal with its extreme rhetoric, because it's that deeply ingrained. 'Trans women' need to start listening to women, rather than just continuing to behave like entitled men.

And none more entitled than you

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So sort your own side out perhaps, get rid of the bullies and open transphobes, learn some manners and don't provocatively misgender people and then those on the other side might be more inclined to tackle some of the more extreme rhetoric and behaviour that has come from trans activists. And if not at least you would have the high moral ground, which you really don't have at the moment.

This is quite staggering given the misogyny and homophobia that is so rife within transgender culture, something nobody seems prepared to confront inside that community. No wonder these people scare the life out of so many women.

"suck my lady dick" - Twitter Search
cis lesbian transphobe" - Twitter Search
"female penis" - Twitter Search

 

[Athos]

We pretty much have a single act (the EA 2010) which its;ef conflates sex and gender, and Ireland's own equalities legislation is set out in a load of different places depending on what it's for. A key difference between there and here as things stand (so we aren't talking hypotheticals) is that for prisoners, in the UK a GRC can be applied for and issued during a period of imprisonment and the prisoner moved to the female estate, in Ireland this cannot happen. (Interestingly, the Irish law is based upon the Argentinian law and both countries are being triumphed for being progressive on trans rights, yet both are very limiting over women's reproductive rights, which is why feminists will question how progressive these countries really are.)

Thanks. The point about disparate acts versus one consolidated piece of legislation is a trivial matter of form as opposed to content or effect. With regard to any difference between to the substance of the two systems, is it limited to the fact that prisoners can't transition? Because, if so, what makes you think the consequences here of the proposed changes will be worse than those in Ireland? Or is it the case that there's been negative consequences in Ireland that I'm not aware of? Or it's it that you believe it's too early to say what the consequences in Ireland might be?

 

[Pickman's model]

This is quite staggering given the misogyny and homophobia that is so rife within transgender culture, something nobody seems prepared to confront inside that community. No wonder these people scare the life out of so many women.

"suck my lady dick" - Twitter Search
cis lesbian transphobe" - Twitter Search
"female penis" - Twitter Search

Internet talk is cheap. So "those people" - numbers please - "scare the life out of so many women". How many women? It's all guff, Miranda, your searches demonstrate nothing.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

How about the attack that started this thread off? Is that all guff too? This "bash a TERF" stuff has been brewing for ages. It STARTED online. Is all online talk cheap? Do you seriously think online "banter" has no effect in the real world?

 

[Pickman's model]

How about the attack that started this thread off? Is that all guff too? This "bash a TERF" stuff has been brewing for ages. It STARTED online. Is all online talk cheap? Do you seriously think online "banter" has no effect in the real world?

I think Miranda's claims are unsubstantiated by the evidence she supplies. And as I've said, not for the first time.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Thanks. The point about disparate acts versus one consolidated piece of legislation is a trivial matter of form as opposed to content or effect. With regard to any difference between to the substance of the two systems, is it limited to the fact that prisoners can't transition? Because, if so, what makes you think the consequences here of the proposed changes will be worse than those in Ireland? Or is it the case that there's been negative consequences in Ireland that I'm not aware of? Or it's it that you believe it's too early to say what the consequences in Ireland might be?

The point about prisons is important as it appears to be an extant problem here and the government seems to have little appetite for dealing with a prison system that's pretty much on it's knees anyway. There's also a huge problem with how trans prisoners are accounted for within the system, a system which we know fails individuals with mental health problems (hence the ridiculously high prison suicide rate).

I think the consequences will likely be different, I hope you're familiar with my argument over why self-ID doesn't help transsexuals (which I keep saying again and again and is by far my biggest objection to the proposed law changes as they stand) and we have to remember Ireland has had the law for two years, with a population of around 1/14th that of the UK. I think also we have to allow for Ireland being culturally much more conservative than the UK anyway.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

How about the attack that started this thread off? Is that all guff too? This "bash a TERF" stuff has been brewing for ages. It STARTED online. Is all online talk cheap? Do you seriously think online "banter" has no effect in the real world?

I understand that one of the individuals in that video at the beginning of this thread has been charged with actual bodily harm. The other two have not been located.

 

[smokedout]

This is quite staggering given the misogyny and homophobia that is so rife within transgender culture, something nobody seems prepared to confront inside that community. No wonder these people scare the life out of so many women.

"suck my lady dick" - Twitter Search
cis lesbian transphobe" - Twitter Search
"female penis" - Twitter Search

Regarding the first and perhaps most abusive - suck my lady dick. I had to go back to October last year to find a trans women saying that to anyone, and in fact they were directing the comment at twitter itself. There's quite a few non trans women using it in a way which has nothing to do with transgenderism, lots of people accusing trans women of saying it to feminists, but in the last four months there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that actually happening on twitter at least.

This relentless dishonesty is one of the reasons your motives look suspect.

 

[smokedout]

How about the attack that started this thread off? Is that all guff too? This "bash a TERF" stuff has been brewing for ages. It STARTED online. Is all online talk cheap? Do you seriously think online "banter" has no effect in the real world?

I don't support that at all. But by the same token, the constant attempts (and often outright lies) to smear trans women as male sexual predators at best or paedophiles and rapists at worst also has an effect in the real world - a world where transgender hate crime is a growing and significant problem.

Of course the people doing this wash their hands of any consequences by saying they aren't responsible for male violence - ignoring the fact that I think around 25% of hate crimes are carried out by women. But despite this that does not abrogate them from responsibility. Telling lies to dishonestly present a marginalised group as criminals or rapists, and knowing what stigma those things carry in society, is really just sub-contracting your violence to the mob.

 

[smokedout]

I understand that one of the individuals in that video at the beginning of this thread has been charged with actual bodily harm. The other two have not been located.

Then you might want to familiarise yourself with the concept of sub judice and shut up about it. Scary that you employ journalists.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Regarding the first and perhaps most abusive - suck my lady dick. I had to go back to October last year to find a trans women saying that to anyone, and in fact they were directing the comment at twitter itself. There's quite a few non trans women using it in a way which has nothing to do with transgenderism, lots of people accusing trans women of saying it to feminists, but in the last four months there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that actually happening on twitter at least.

This relentless dishonesty is one of the reasons your motives look suspect.

This is from December:


The point is, it's a result of the culture. Also:

www.TerfIsASlur.com

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Then you might want to familiarise yourself with the concept of sub judice and shut up about it. Scary that you employ journalists.

Whether someone has been charged or not isn't sub judice. It's scary you're even allowed an internet connection.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's not irrelevant to Irish women.

It’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not self-declared gender recognition has led to the consequences bigots claim it would. Which is the point you are fully aware was being made when you chose to dishonestly quote that sentence out of context. Strangely enough you have nothing to say about the actual experience of self-declared gender recognition one island over. A cynic might begin to think that you are more interested in nursing your bigotry than in assessing the truth of your claims.

 

[Pickman's model]

Whether someone has been charged or not isn't sub judice. It's scary you're even allowed an internet connection.

Yeh. Didn't realise you were so timid

 

[smokedout]

Whether someone has been charged or not isn't sub judice. It's scary you're even allowed an internet connection.

You've made several comments about that incident which if someone has been charged could leave you liable for contempt of court, and could cause the same problems for this site.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You've made several comments about that incident which if someone has been charged could leave you liable for contempt of court, and could cause the same problems for this site.

I don't believe you're correct. I have not identified anyone. And the police issue a statement when someone is charged...

 

[smokedout]

This is from December:


The point is, it's a result of the culture. Also:

www.TerfIsASlur.com

So one tweet, in the world, in the last month. The trans gestapo appears to be quite sluggish.

 

[smokedout]

I don't believe you're correct. I have not identified anyone. And the police issue a statement when someone is charged...

You have commented on your opinion of their guilt, and referred to it as a violent attack by trans activists. Presuming the person had been charged when you posted that then that could leave you liable.