Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[andysays]

You say you're not a TERF Sue but according to Nigel surely you are, if 'Trans women are women' isn't the end of the conversation for you, if you still have questions or concerns of any kind, then you must be either a terf or the more mainstream sort of bigot. There is no room for you or your shades of grey in Nigel's world.

"I am a TERF and so is my wife" apparently

 

[andysays]

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately trans culture requires submission to 'trans women are women' or you're a 'TERF'. It's a fascist ideology and it's like a huge concrete block standing in the way of progress.

It's nonsense, but I don't think it quite merits equating with fascism...

 

[Pickman's model]

Point taken, that said transgender culture and the resultant ideology appears to me to be a dominant vector in what I have termed 'the neofascism of the regressive left'.

you didn't enjoy the 1970s i see: it's your go-to put-down.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, it's almost as if it's unacceptable for men to have sex with other men.

You do know the views on this subject of Blanchard and Lawrence, yes? Blanchard reckons homosexuality is basically a birth defect:

According to Ray Blanchard of the University of Toronto, when a woman is pregnant with a male fetus, her body is exposed to a male-specific antigen, some molecule that normally turns the fetus heterosexual. The woman’s immune system produces antibodies to fight this foreign antigen. With enough antibodies, the antigen will be neutralized and no longer capable of making the fetus straight. These antibodies linger in the mother’s body long after pregnancy, and so when a woman has a second son, or a third or fourth, an army of antibodies is lying in wait to zap the chemicals that would normally make him heterosexual.

Scientists May Have Uncovered a Biological Basis for Homosexuality. Is That Good News for Gays?

Note that this is pure speculation, the result of his own prejudices. A just-so story. It's bollocks, basically. Just like everything else this joker says.

 

[elbows]

you didn't enjoy the 1970s i see: it's your go-to put-down.

And crypto-fascist, dont forget that one

 

[pengaleng]

ooooh miranda tell us some more about how the world works you oracle

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Please would you expand on the differences between the current position in Ireland and the proposed changes to the GRA here?

It's how the changes affect the Equality Acts in each country. It's this legislation which causes significantly most of the 'real world' effect. This is something that's missed with the GRA debate, the GRA can say whatever it likes but it's how it impacts on the Equalities Act that matters, how they treat definitions of 'sex' and 'gender' (the UK act conflates these) and the exemptions that are available in those acts.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's how the changes affect the Equality Acts in each country. It's this legislation which causes significantly most of the 'real world' effect. This is something that's missed with the GRA debate, the GRA can say whatever it likes but it's how it impacts on the Equalities Act that matters, how they treat definitions of 'sex' and 'gender' (the UK act conflates these) and the exemptions that are available in those acts.

yeh. this would be the equality act which doesn't apply to 26 of the 32 counties in ireland.

there is no 'equality act' in irish law, miranda.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You do know the views on this subject of Blanchard and Lawrence, yes? Blanchard reckons homosexuality is basically a birth defect:

Scientists May Have Uncovered a Biological Basis for Homosexuality. Is That Good News for Gays?

Note that this is pure speculation, the result of his own prejudices. A just-so story. It's bollocks, basically. Just like everything else this joker says.

I think sexual orientation is complex and I don't think people are necessarily 'born gay' but may be born with a tendency. I don't necessarily agree with everything Blanchard says, and attacking him on some thing doesn't affect the point that's under debate, you're ad homming again. Also, Blanchard's work refines ideas researchers were exploring a century ago. It's not new.

 

[pengaleng]

everyone loves a fucing 'ad hominiem' cus it makes em sound really clever as fuck but actualky you look like a dick cus you repeat it so often

 

[pengaleng]

surprised no ones bleating about straw men

 

[pengaleng]

yeh. this would be the equality act which doesn't apply to 26 of the 32 counties in ireland.

there is no 'equality act' in irish law, miranda.

like see shit like this is just cringe tbh

 

[smokedout]

Lees's sexism has been criticised by trans people and their allies. Most importantly this has been noticed and criticised by women. I'm not sure where you get the 'hate' from, I am not hating on anyone.

You claim that trans activists hate trans women who are attracted to men. Whilst Paris Lees may have been criticised I'm not seeing any hatred. And whilst you say androphilic transsexuals have no voice it seems clear to me that Lees is the one of the most prominent trans women in the UK, having appeared on Question Time for example. So I think what you mean is that you don't like the voice that androphilic transsexuals have because you don't agree with them.

It is notable that the trans lobby is supportive of prostitution and pornography, invoking arguments of economic freedom for the former and freedom of speech for the latter, ironically given the attacks the same lobby makes upon the freedom of speech and expression of others.

Or perhaps some trans activists recognise economic coercion, have an analysis of waged work as exploitative full stop and do not condemn sex workers for the choices they make within that, as well as recognise for some people they feel they have little choice. Most radical trans activists I've read and spoken to concentrate on attacking the structural reasons why such work exists and why it is so exploitative. This is in contrast to some radical feminists, usually the same ones who oppose trans people, who would rather attack working class women for making choices in a rigged and exploitative system than attack the system that forces the working class into these 'choices'. Of course this system has served some people rather well and it's very easy for magazine editors, business owners and academics to make these kind of judgements about choices they will never have to face.

 

[pengaleng]

fucking preeeeeach they never go after the system, thats why theres self serve checkouts

 

[Pickman's model]

I think sexual orientation is complex and I don't think people are necessarily 'born gay' but may be born with a tendency. I don't necessarily agree with everything Blanchard says, and attacking him on some thing doesn't affect the point that's under debate, you're ad homming again. Also, Blanchard's work refines ideas researchers were exploring a century ago. It's not new.

yeh. how about something simple, like uk law not applying in ireland. you do know it's a different country, right?

 

[pengaleng]

 

[Lurdan]

yeh. this would be the equality act which doesn't apply to 26 of the 32 counties in ireland.

there is no 'equality act' in irish law, miranda.

Well apart from this one of course

Equality Act 2004

which is fairly obviously what was being referred to.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well apart from this one of course

Equality Act 2004

which is fairly obviously what was being referred to.

the face made when one believes the wrong website



e2a: i'm not sure you're right, lurdan. <checks>

 

[Athos]

It's how the changes affect the Equality Acts in each country. It's this legislation which causes significantly most of the 'real world' effect. This is something that's missed with the GRA debate, the GRA can say whatever it likes but it's how it impacts on the Equalities Act that matters, how they treat definitions of 'sex' and 'gender' (the UK act conflates these) and the exemptions that are available in those acts.

Thanks. But pease would you explain the specifics of the differences? Because this seems a bit vague. And it's an important point. Whilst you know I don't think women's concerns should be dismissed, if there's relevant evidence regarding the likelihood of those fears becoming (or not becoming) a reality, it deserves to be explored in much more detail.

 

[pengaleng]

the face made when one believes the wrong website

fucking mug, I rely on you to at least be somewhat close to right because I'm too lazy

 

[Pickman's model]

fucking mug, I rely on you to at least be somewhat close to right because I'm too lazy

yeh. i'm just reading the first bit of the act which undermines Lurdan's case afaics. it says the act may be called the equality act but then it proceeds to amend other acts and says this

1.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Equality Act 2004.

(2) Part 2 and the Employment Equality Act 1998 may be cited as the Employment Equality Acts 1998 and 2004 and shall be construed together as one.

Part 3 and the Equal Status Acts 2000 and 2003 may be cited as the Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2004 and shall be construed together as one.

Part 4 of this Act and the Pensions Acts 1990 to 2004 may be cited together as the Pensions Acts 1990 to 2004 and shall be construed together as one.

which substantiates what i said before.

 

[pengaleng]

see I was gonna go through all the amendments but i couldnt be arsed

 

[Pickman's model]

see I was gonna go through all the amendments but i couldnt be arsed

i don't blame you

 

[Lurdan]

Indeed it's not very clearly presented - but afaics the Equality Act 2004 amends previous legislation to incorporate various EU directives. From that culturewise page you linked to

The Equality Act 2004 implements the provisions of the amended Gender Equal Treatment Framework, Framework Employment Directive and Race Directive. These Directives take precedence over Irish law which should be read and interpreted having regard to the provisions of the Directives.

Equality Act 2004 seeks to implement the EU Race Directive which prohibits discrimination on the grounds of racial or ethnic origin and takes precedence over Irish law. The Traveller community ground has to be read and interpreted in the light of this Directive.

and as you point out the Act states that it "may be cited as the Equality Act 2004".

So not only does it "self-define" as the Equalities [ETA: Equality duh] Act but it actually exists

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think sexual orientation is complex and I don't think people are necessarily 'born gay' but may be born with a tendency. I don't necessarily agree with everything Blanchard says, and attacking him on some thing doesn't affect the point that's under debate, you're ad homming again. Also, Blanchard's work refines ideas researchers were exploring a century ago. It's not new.

Firstly, the fact that his bullshit is built on the bullshit of others is irrelevant. Second, I'm not ad-homming. I'm showing the kind of ideology you are advocating. Blanchard's bollocks about sexuality feeds directly into his bollocks about gender identity, precisely because he causally links the one to the other.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed it's not very clearly presented - but afaics the Equality Act 2004 amends previous legislation to incorporate various EU directives. From that culturewise page you linked to






and as you point out the Act states that it "may be cited as the Equality Act 2004".

So not only does it "self-define" as the Equalities [ETA: Equality duh] Act but it actually exists

yes. but if you read it you'll see that the everything after part 1 is not the equality act 2004 but the acts i list above, and the equality act 2004 proper therefore only consists of part 1.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You claim that trans activists hate trans women who are attracted to men. Whilst Paris Lees may have been criticised I'm not seeing any hatred. And whilst you say androphilic transsexuals have no voice it seems clear to me that Lees is the one of the most prominent trans women in the UK, having appeared on Question Time for example. So I think what you mean is that you don't like the voice that androphilic transsexuals have because you don't agree with them.

No, HSTS. Lees is not typical of the HSTS.

Or perhaps some trans activists recognise economic coercion, have an analysis of waged work as exploitative full stop and do not condemn sex workers for the choices they make within that, as well as recognise for some people they feel they have little choice. Most radical trans activists I've read and spoken to concentrate on attacking the structural reasons why such work exists and why it is so exploitative. This is in contrast to some radical feminists, usually the same ones who oppose trans people, who would rather attack working class women for making choices in a rigged and exploitative system than attack the system that forces the working class into these 'choices'. Of course this system has served some people rather well and it's very easy for magazine editors, business owners and academics to make these kind of judgements about choices they will never have to face.

You're still spending more time attacking the arguer than argument. Transactivism appears to me to be neoliberal, it's individualist not collectivist: there's broad application of the classic liberal doctrine of doing what you want with your life and your body, as long as no harm comes to others: there is no consideration given to the harm principle, which is a whole new rabbit-hole.

Yes, people should be able to live their lives the way they choose. No, they should not be able to do this at the expense of others.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Firstly, the fact that his bullshit is built on the bullshit of others is irrelevant. Second, I'm not ad-homming. I'm showing the kind of ideology you are advocating. Blanchard's bollocks about sexuality feeds directly into his bollocks about gender identity, precisely because he causally links the one to the other.

Can we not agree then there are different types of transsexual, being the homosexual transsexual and non-homosexual transsexual, and each have differing trajectories towards transition?

 

[smokedout]

Can we not agree then there are different types of transsexual, being the homosexual transsexual and non-homosexual transsexual, and each have differing trajectories towards transition?

Are you denying the existence of bisexual transsexuals?

 

[pengaleng]

I am gonna smoke more weed