Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[FabricLiveBaby!]

What does real mean ?
This is my idea of fun.

Lol. I'm in bed suffering from this fucking ear infection and deafening tinnitus as a result of said infection (it was a true story.. all of it). What's your excuse?

 

[bimble]

Lol. I'm in bed suffering from this fucking ear infection and deafening tinnitus as a result of said infection (it was a true story.. all of it). What's your excuse?

Good question. I actually have no excuse, apart from the deep and awkward stuff that might account for my being much happier talking about my ideas on here to doing so in real life, which nobody wants to know and i am not about to try to put into a sentence. Right, time to do some spaghetti.

 

[trashpony]

I've been assuming that you are simply disingenuous but I'm beginning to wonder if you really don't understand that you are not in fact the voice of all womankind? And that people can be hostile to your nasty, bigoted opinions without that reflecting a general hostility to women?

In either case, this apparently desperate need for the attention of someone who holds you in contempt is a bit unseemly.

Of course I'm not the voice of all womankind! And of course you're entirely entitled to be hostile. Being as you're a man and all.

 

[MochaSoul]

No. More like, insofar as I encounter trans women, treating them as men would do more harm than good. But, I recognise that, as a man, I don't encounter those difficult marginal cases e.g. rape shelters.

Aargh... I really don't want to sound unkind or personal but this is so typical of men. You know a trans woman or two, you don't know what to do with them "Let's lump them on the women." Never a word about what may happen to trans men btw.
It's not enough we already carry the many caring burdens of society (at home, professionally and in solidarity with each other) we now have also to carry individuals messed up by a whole system which already benefits men above all. Not only that but we have to share what little power and resources we've carved out in order to change our fates and help each other with a bunch of over grown men; and to top it all we're now also having to share the pulpits we've conquered to speak our truth to power with them too, only to hear the likes of Lily Maddigan dictating to us how to make ourselves eligible to stand at those pulpits.

 

[Athos]

Aargh... I really don't want to sound unkind or personal but this is so typical of men. You know a trans woman or two, you don't know what to do with them "Let's lump them on the women." Never a word about what may happen to trans men btw.
It's not enough we already carry the many caring burdens of society (at home, professionally and in solidarity with each other) we now have also to carry individuals messed up by a whole system which already benefits men above all. Not only that but we have to share what little power and resources we've carved out in order to change our fates and help each other with a bunch of over grown men; and to top it all we're now also having to share the pulpits we've conquered to speak our truth to power with them too, only to hear the like of Lily Maddigan dictating to us how to make ourselves eligible to stand at those pulpits.

No, I've explicitly said I don't expect women to treat them as women, and, throughout have recognised the risks to women of doing so (which has earned me dog's abuse as a TERF bigot etc.). I don't ask or expect anything of women in this question. Nor did I think that my trans acceptance - in reality nothing more than courtesy - has any detrimental effect on women (but might avoid causing unnecessary distress to trans people).

 

[MochaSoul]

which has earned me dog's abuse as a TERF bigot etc.

All TERF means is that some feminists think that the problems of men have nothing to do with feminism. I may just get a T-Shirt printed. The fact it may get on some people's pants is starting to sound like an added bonus.

TERF and fucking proud

 

[Athos]

All TERF means is that some feminists think that the problems of men have nothing to do with feminism. I may just get a T-Shirt printed. The fact it may get on some people's pants is starting to sound like an added bonus.

TERF and fucking proud

Unfortunately, the word has come to have some other associations.

 

[MochaSoul]

Unfortunately, the word has come to have some other associations.

Time to reclaim it then. It does not follow that because one might be a TERF feminist that they think trans people don't have a human rights.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

The phenomenon that requires special explanation is not that younger British feminists are broadly in step with the feminist movement internationally but that an unusually strong cohort of older feminists in Britain are so wildly out of step with it. I’ve tried to give an explanation for that oddity repeatedly in this thread: a combination of the survival of various 80s subcultural scenes linked to an unusually strong radfem movement then with the work done by the Blairites at the New Statesman to make anti-trans sentiments respectable to non social conservatives.

The idea that the conflict is actually caused by some failing of youth is no doubt very attractive to older TERFs who can sense themselves being marginalized, but that self serving explanation can’t account for the relative weakness of generational conflict over this issue
,

 

[Athos]

Time to reclaim it then. It does not follow that because one might be a TERF feminist that they think trans people don't have a human rights.

I agree. And (to the extent it's my place to say) I'd like to see an accommodation that benefits women and trans people. I think the opportunities for solidarity mean it needn't be a zero sum game.

 

[bimble]

All TERF means is that some feminists think that the problems of men have nothing to do with feminism. I may just get a T-Shirt printed. The fact it may get on some people's pants is starting to sound like an added bonus.

TERF and fucking proud

I would be very frightened to wear that T-shirt down the road. Just putting TERF in speech brackets feels like a thing.

 

[MochaSoul]

I would be very frightened to wear that T-shirt.

Rosa Parks must have been pissing herself with fear too on that bus seat

 

[MochaSoul]

Just putting TERF in speech brackets feels like a thing.

Bunch of men try to frighten women out of using their own words. Story of our lives!

 

[bimble]

Also my very right on feminist boyfriend would probably dump me, if I got the t shirt. We have regular arguments about this, which vary in quality but are worth having. He called me a 'basic transphobe' last time.

 

[weepiper]

I haven't had kids, and i'm still the wrong kind of feminist. Wednesday night though I had the classic 'Hi babe how you doin' when I was walking home really late in the dark, and for sure years and years of accumulated irritation at having to deal with and appease that stuff definitely informs my attitude to this whole issue.

I meant to respond to this earlier but was busy with my kids sure, of course you can still be 'the wrong kind of feminist' without having children, it's just that the whole pregnancy/childbirth/early years experience will totally pull any wool away from your eyes about the thin veil of women's equality. These 'young feminists' that Nigel approves of so much (not like us old argumentative awkward hags) are in for a cold hard shock in a few years, either for themselves or seeing it happen to their friends.

 

[MochaSoul]

Also my very right on feminist boyfriend would probably dump me, if I got the t shirt. We have regular arguments about this, which vary in quality but are worth having. He called me a 'basic transphobe' last time.

Yeah... Single here. But my son has noted my tendency to rant about this of late so he's always overdoing the condescending tone "Hush, my child! It's going to be alright." or as last night when, on opening the fridge, I complained of how fast the food's going, "I can handle my food 'cos I'm a man" (His voice has broken too so it's hard to keep a serious face).

 

[smokedout]

Time to reclaim it then. It does not follow that because one might be a TERF feminist that they think trans people don't have a human rights.

Arch terf Sheila Jeffries believes that transsexuality itself is a violation of human rights and any medical treatment should be banned.

Also given most societies accord even the most dangerous prisoners some kind of human rights this in itself is not a wholly supportive position.

 

[smokedout]

And this is the problem with the poster. In their desperation to include everybody they're opening the door to tedious self important dudebros who are identifying as non-binary this week who will dominate the conversation and the women will have to tolerate it out of politeness and niceness and no-one will tell them to sit doon. Like always happens when we let men join our conversations. Which makes it not worth bothering with.

Is this happening in trans and non-binary inclusive women's spaces though? In fashionable London it's been quite normal to see feminist meetings and events quite openly stating trans and non binary inclusive policies.

 

[MochaSoul]

Arch terf Sheila Jeffries believes that transsexuality itself is a violation of human rights and any medical treatment should be banned.

Also given most societies accord even the most dangerous prisoners some kind of human rights this in itself is not a wholly supportive position.

I don't take kindly to men invading spaces women worked hard to conquer so it naturally follows that I must be just like Sheila Jeffries because no two people in a group ever diverged in opinion, innit?

 

[smokedout]

I don't take kindly to men invading spaces women worked hard to conquer so it naturally follows that I must be just like Sheila Jeffries because no two people in a group ever diverged in opinion, innit?

I wasn't saying that, just pointing out the usual terf position on trans people and human rights.

Are men really invading women's spaces, some women's spaces have become trans and non binary inclusive, but I'm not sure it's fair to describe that as a male invasion.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Arch terf

Gold.

Is that the official leader of the TERF Hate Cult™

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Ah, I had hoped to be done with this thread, being both naive and hopelessly adrift regarding the often circular arguments but here is my non-ideological, real world example (I had so hoped to have no dog in this race). My daughter has organised a 'sister circle' (!) for this Easter in our woods...but the whole thing is unravelling because a person currently identifying as female is insisting on going. As we know this person to be a narcissist and massive pita, she has not been invited. More importantly, before her recent transformation, she has had dodgy sexual relationships with a couple of the women (afaik, she has never had any sexual relationships with men)...plus she is a demanding and abusive drunk. All the women who know her are on board with using whatever personal pronoun and first name she prefers...but less keen on sharing a firepit in the woods....while other women who do not know her, have rapidly come down on what they percieve to be an anti-trans agenda...and yep, it is turning into a terf war... gleefully exacerbated by person in question now she has been left off the invite list.

While woman are feeling annoyed and enraged, being told what to do, think and accept...after a decades long battle to overturn the oppressive tenets of patriarchal hegemony, I can't really think that this current handwringing and name-calling, offers any benefit at all, in terms of rights, equality, accessibility, for those transpeople (including the seemingly invisible trans men) who have struggled to define and challenge a restrictive, exclusive system of labelling, yet desperately need community, solidarity and acceptance.

#solidarity with your daughter and you.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I wasn't saying that, just pointing out the usual terf position on trans people and human rights.

Are men really invading women's spaces, some women's spaces have become trans and non binary inclusive, but I'm not sure it's fair to describe that as a male invasion.

Only a man would say this.

 

[smokedout]

Gold.

Is that the official leader of the TERF Hate Cult™

I'm quite happy to call Jeffries and her ilk terfs and I do think they are little more than a hate group.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You and I understand him to be male, because we define his sex by biology (which, in my opinion is the only sensible way to sex a cat).

... or any mammal...

 

[MochaSoul]

I wasn't saying that, just pointing out the usual terf position on trans people and human rights.

So you say. I know already that there are a variety of positions on the subject.

Are men really invading women's spaces, some women's spaces have become trans and non binary inclusive, but I'm not sure it's fair to describe that as a male invasion.

I've been on this conversation for a very short while and I've learned enough from the contradictions I have found to be worried about all womens spaces. The events at Young Labour have taught me I should be worried about all women's spaces. Complacency is not something that should be indulged not when the balance of power is against you and yours already.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

It's a bit tiresome you misrepresenting my position simply because you appear not to have understood it. It wasn't some pomo relativism, but a rebuttal of MY's spurious (at least implied) dichotomy between opponents ideology and 'reality', on the basis that their position failed to acknowledge that their truth rests wholly on a choice about the basis of definition of gender.

You already agree sex is based on reproductive class, what does identity have to do with it?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Oh so there is such a thing as truth, or reality, which is a separate thing from what you or the next person might believe to be true ?

What are you on about then. My cat is a boy cat right?

Karl Popper would go grey reading this.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't take kindly to men invading spaces women worked hard to conquer so it naturally follows that I must be just like Sheila Jeffries because no two people in a group ever diverged in opinion, innit?

You said this and this sounds a bit like that therefore you must think that and I couldn't be bothered actually finding out what you really think because my view is fully formed therefore yours must be too and you are wrong.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

All TERF means is that some feminists think that the problems of men have nothing to do with feminism. I may just get a T-Shirt printed. The fact it may get on some people's pants is starting to sound like an added bonus.

TERF and fucking proud

I'd wear this. Because it matters.