Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[elbows]

I dislike the word 'cis'. I am a straight woman but people who don't know me often assume I'm a lesbian, I guess because I am outwardly non-conforming which puts me in their mental lesbian box - by which I mean I wear baggy jeans, trainers and a hoody 99% of the time, I work in a massively male-dominated industry and am generally pretty grubby and oily, I don't ever wear makeup anymore, I can't be arsed with plucking my eyebrows or any of that. About the only stereotypical female appearance thing I do is shave my legs, but tbh only because I wear shorts at work and it makes cleaning dirty oily marks off my knees easier. I have many times been mistaken for a man at work when my hair's been short or I'm wearing a hat. I don't feel like it's a pose or a copout being how I am, in fact I rather feel it's the opposite. It's not an easy road to travel and it's taken 40 years to get comfortable with it and stop feeling like I have to 'perform' womanhood outwardly. I am a woman, and fuck anyone who says I'm any less of one or that I'm just striking a pose or attention-seeking because I don't conform to their mental rules for that word.

My brain still hurts when it comes to words like cis. Probably because it seems to have turned out to be somewhat divisive. And because terms can be come up with for sensible and useful purposes in certain contexts, but may then turn out to have loads of other potential implications that havent been thought through. Including ones that might expose existing weaknesses in peoples mutual understanding and agreement or disagreement over things like gender. It doesnt take much for it to feel like things a person cares about or are a major feature of the story and struggle of their lives, are being eroded in some way. Or old myths long fought against and seemingly overcome, returning to the stage again in new form.

I think theres also something to be said for elegant solutions, if something is too easily clumsy then its less likely to thrive without unintended consequences.

 

[mojo pixy]

The same questions arise from "Transgender men are men" which as a cis man you are as able to comment on as women are.

Someone Assigned Female at Birth, can they be A Man?

This is an area of the discussion we haven't really heard, it's all framed as AFAB women complaining that trans women are really men playing pretendy dress-up. Where are the AMAB men complaining that there are loads of women pretending to be men? Would anyone care about that argument anyway? Is there anything about being an AMAB man and experiencing childhood being treated and socialised as a boy rather than a girl, that makes true man-ness unavailable to a trans man? Of course the reproduction issue isn't an issue, but then it isn't for every woman either, or even every AFAB woman, so what's left beyond that? Is there anything that makes a man, which a trans man could not access, in the way it's being argued trans women can not access things that make a woman?

Simplistic language attempted on purpose because for me there are manifold unresolved issues and I want to avoid building in assumptions to the questions.

Having a partner of the same sex is about as gender non-conforming as you can get. Also, have you met many lesbians and/or gay men? It's their gender non-conformity that stands out.

I have to say, no. My own experience here, there are loads and loads of very masculine gay men, and plenty of very feminine lesbians. Also yes there are camp gay men and butch lesbians but yeah. No. Gender and sexuality are related issues, sure, but one in no way maps cleanly onto the other.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Someone Assigned Female at Birth, can they be A Man?

This is an area of the discussion we haven't really heard, it's all framed as AFAB women complaining that trans women are really men playing pretendy dress-up. Where are the AMAB men complaining that there are loads of women pretending to be men? Would anyone care about that argument anyway? Is there anything about being an AMAB man and experiencing childhood being treated and socialised as a boy rather than a girl, that makes true man-ness unavailable to a trans man? Of course the reproduction issue isn't an issue, but then it isn't for every woman either, or even every AFAB woman, so what's left beyond that? Is there anything that makes a man, which a trans man could not access, in the way it's being argued trans women can not access things that make a woman?

Simplistic language attempted on purpose because for me there are manifold unresolved issues and I want to avoid building in assumptions to the questions.



I have to say, no. My own experience here, there are loads and loads of very masculine gay men, and plenty of very feminine lesbians. Also yes there are camp gay men and butch lesbians but yeah. No. Gender and sexuality are related issues, sure, but one in no way maps cleanly onto the other.

Because men aren’t threatened by women entering their spaces.

 

[mojo pixy]

What bit is that answering?

 

[elbows]

I have to say, no. My own experience here, there are loads and loads of very masculine gay men, and plenty of very feminine lesbians. Also yes there are camp gay men and butch lesbians but yeah. No. Gender and sexuality are related issues, sure, but one in no way maps cleanly onto the other.

Its kind of blowing my mind that we are having to add these things to the picture.

I'm tempted to conclude that Miranda Yardley doesnt have enough pigeon holes, those that are available are too limited in depth, and the system is way too rigid to respond to the variations actually present in the world. At best this feeble array of choices may on odd occasion reveal some awkward complication that fancier systems fear to dwell on, at worst it leads to something resembling a parody of historical medical literature concerning homosexual tendencies.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I just go with the non-defining idea that we're all queer humans. Obtuse I know, but it works.

<- Hetro queer

Perhaps so. But identity politics does that whichever way you look at it.

Gender/Identity is so individual and fluid that by simply labelling a particular strain, you create a political dualism of prejudice and acceptance which in turn creates social movements opposed to each other. It is a tactic of division from the patriarchy and reactionary 80`s feminism (SCUM!)
Maybe we should be reducing the labels, not adding to them?

As Crass said: movements are systems and systems kill.

The social root of this fear about men becoming women probably is rooted in the defence of patriarchy and macho masculinity as nobody seems to mind when women become men.

 

[MochaSoul]

In my experience some people who reject the term cis when you meet them are very typical for their gender

I'd say I am very typical for my gender. Typicality (if such a word exists) means nowt because it's been learned. "Trousers are for boys"; "You're a young girl and not a lad so quit thinking you're one"; "No wonder you have no [girl] friends, trivial pursuit is for know-it-alls"; "You're making your brother's bed because no matter what else you do you're the one who will have to keep a house too" (well, that worked! ).
If everything, including our tastes, is subject to socialisation why not the way we present ourselves to others given the mix of approval/rejection of behaviours according to gender roles?

But I didn’t come to like those things in a cultural or social vacuum, but against a backdrop of powerful social messages about what kinds of things women ought to like, so it’s no surprise that I should come to like some of these things. And anyway, I don’t feel that these things reflect anything deep, essential or natural about my identity. They are just my tastes and preferences. Had I been raised in a different culture, I might have had different ones, but I would still have been basically the same person.

If if had been raised within my mum's original tribe I'd probably present like this, when young,

or these women at several other maturity stages:

I'd immerse my hair in a mix of cow pat and mud with some oils, I'd dress, dance and be assigned tasks according to age, development, menses, marital status, having had kids or not, reached menopause, hierarchical place, etc, etc.

Perhaps life in the desert is a bit too hard to allow for one to imagine indulgence in "Why can't I do as/go with my brother?" (not sure) but the fact that one learns to conform to what is expected and demanded by society does not mean one's happy with whatever role and role-playing one's one has to conform to.

Is it incumbent on us to accept their lack of gender identity and not label them cis, even though as far as anyone looking or interacting with them might tell they do have a gender identity - perhaps not an internal one, but an external one?

So we should accept some people aren't the gender they seem to be as evidenced by their sex but we should accept other people are the cis as evidenced by the degree of conformity to artificial outer criteria such as the clothes one wears and whether one shoulders domestic chores? even though pressure to conform to those goes beyond formative years and the confines of your mother and father's reach?

I recognise that gender is imposed, but not everyone performs gender according to their biological sex, trans people don't, so is there a valid distinction to be made between people who do and people who don't?

What I don't like about the word cis is that it presupposes everyone to have a gender identity. I don't. I have learned it's easier to get on in life if I pick my battles. When I was younger and still under my mum's thumb that meant wearing my hair long and after that it still took me till after my son was born to grow the ovaries to cut my hair very short and being around my mum means I still snap at her when she implies I should be more mindful of how I present.

I'm not saying I 'm really sure about any of this

I'm suspicious of claims to certainty.

I'm just posing the question, possibly due to a certain amount of irritation at people declaring themselves genderless who are very visibly gendered.

I don't see myself as agendered. But I don't apportion my "womanhood" to having the "soul" of a woman.

Not all aimed at you by the way MochaSoul just that post made me think about it.

I didn't take it as such. Glad to have more to ponder on.

Still, there’s the odd curveball that can get you - a friend’s father is transgender and refers to herself as “X’s Dad”. Easy enough to navigate around, but I wouldn’t have been sure if she didn’t announce herself as such at X’s wedding during the speech.

My son called me by my first name until he went to primary school. Why? Because he didn't have anyone telling him "Go to mummy..."; "Tell mummy.", "Mum's not going to like it if..."; "Mum's over here." "Mum's over there". All he heard were people calling me C-. so he called me C-. The weird bit is that he ended up never calling me "mamã" or "mãe" given we spoke Portuguese in the house. He went straight to "mum"; then he had a "mother" stage and now it depends on his mood. In any case, it seems to me that going to school and hearing the other kids "My mum this", "My mum that" changed his mind. Of course, with primary school, so also went his use of Portuguese (I worked from home at the time and was always speaking English on the phone and with no Portuguese neighbours, or friends around, it just became more difficult for both of us to change mindsets depending on whether we were alone or in company).

I only know of a transgender acquaintance (through their sister) and her children addressing her was a bit fraught. She wanted them to call her mum but they didn't because "they already had a mum". That was agreed but only at home; outside the house they called her by her first name because they found it difficult to have to go through the explaining. After a while they stopped calling her Dad even at home.

especially when someone is trying to explain your existence to you by calling you that

It's the assumptions behind the word that make me go nuts

Twitter has a lot to answer for in this respect, imo,

First time I heard it was on the Rachel Dolezal thread. I made a cursory google search got the non-trans sense came away thinking I knew all about it. I'm glad I didn't then.

This is not the case, some of the people who reject this term the strongest are lesbians and gay men, who are about as gender non-conforming as you can get. Also, on the basis that part of the woman's gender role is to be submissive, any woman who has ever told a man to 'fuck off' is definitely not gender conformant!

I'd heard about this but it didn't make sense to me. Is sexuality the pinnacle of gender performativity?

 

[MochaSoul]

I always hated the term non-white, because why should there be an opposite of white? And why lump so many people in either group and for what reason? PoC is the fashionable way of saying the same thing nowadays.

I "cis" was simply non-trans I'd accept that comparison. I don't think it is. I hate "people of colour" btw. Just because it's used it doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

[bimble]

Some rad fems and butch lesbians, and some feminine gay men I would concede do not perform gender to the usual extent, but it's rare to meet someone who is not trans who radically appears to reject gender. If all other things were equal or obscured such as facial features and body shape, the average person would easily be able to identify their gender of almost everyone who is not trans based on their clothes, mannerisms, speech patterns, interests and social role.

I've read this a few times now and still don't get it. You're saying trans people are basically the only ones who do not perform gender roles in a conformist way? Are you extending the word trans to include all 'gender non conforming' people or what?

 

[8ball]

The social root of this fear about men becoming women probably is rooted in the defence of patriarchy and macho masculinity as nobody seems to mind when women become men.

It's nice of the feminists to be helping the patriarchy out with the masculinity crisis.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I've come across the #DroptheT hashtag this morning, presumably referring to LGBT ...Does anyone know much about it?

 

[8ball]

I've come across the #DroptheT hashtag this morning, presumably referring to LGBT ...Does anyone know much about it?

I thought there were a lot more letters than four now anyway - are we having a contraction?

My prediction is the B will be next to go...

 

[Treacle Toes]

I thought there were a lot more letters than four now anyway - are we having a contraction?

My prediction is the B will be next to go...

There are more letters now yes LGBTQ+ ? Happy to be corrected if wrong.

I only went as far as the T above because I was referring to and asking about the #DroptheT hashtag...nothing more sinister than that.

 

[MochaSoul]

I've come across the #DroptheT hashtag this morning, presumably referring to LGBT ...Does anyone know much about it?

I've come across the shout out several times on twitter (it never occurred to me that a hashtag might have been created - which is pretty daft of me really). Anyhoo when I searched for it I found this among other things
Sign the Petition
Not sure it's representative but it more or less concurred with comments I had found.

E2a: I've also found that some people think the gay rights movement should be confined to matters to do with sexuality. Transgender encompasses identity.

 

[8ball]

There are more letters now yes LGBTQ+ ? Happy to be corrected if wrong.

I only went as far as the T above because I was referring to and asking about the #DroptheT hashtag...nothing more sinister than that.

Wasn't implying anything sinister.
Yeah, I'd seen the "+" before - I assumed they put that in because there were formulations knocking about that were getting on for 10 letters.

It's like the DHSS. They dropped the H. They seem to be getting close to dropping the D.

 

[krtek a houby]

There are more letters now yes LGBTQ+ ? Happy to be corrected if wrong.

I only went as far as the T above because I was referring to and asking about the #DroptheT hashtag...nothing more sinister than that.

I've not used the "Q" when I mention it. Should I be doing that?

 

[8ball]

I've not used the "Q" when I mention it. Should I be doing that?

What was the difference between the Q and the LGB bit again? And does the plus mean anything specific?

 

[krtek a houby]

What was the difference between the Q and the LGB bit again? And does the plus mean anything specific?

Honestly couldn't tell you! A variation of the previous letters?

 

[MochaSoul]

the average person would easily be able to identify their gender of almost everyone who is not trans based on their clothes, mannerisms, speech patterns, interests and social role.

When I was young and I sat with my legs apart I'd be told off. Later I found that was because of an inference of promiscuity. The kind of moment when you realise that it's not what is in your head or your words that really counts. You become self-conscious and that colours your behaviour. Later on, someone comes along and calls you "gender conforming" or cis . you do it because there is something in your head that tells you are a woman not because you've been compelled to it. Nah...

 

[Treacle Toes]

When I was young and I sat with my legs apart I'd be told off. Later I found that was because of an inference of promiscuity.

To add to that, as someone who was told exactly the same thing, it was also to protect me from predatory men. My elders feared for my safety. It was an acknowledgement that as a female child I was at risk more than them thinking I was doing it in any kind of encouraging way.

 

[MochaSoul]

To add to that, as someone who was told exactly the same thing, it was also to protect me from predatory men. My elders feared for my safety. It was an acknowledgement that as a female child I was at risk more than them thinking I was doing it in any kind of encouraging way.

Exactly. The last thing one wants is for men around to regard you in a "free for all" (in the same way a lot do prostitutes by virtue of their occupation) because (when your word is already seen as second-best) nothing you might say will count if they perceive a mismatch in your behaviour. It's a risk you're not willing to take even if you see your elders as antiquated or yada.

 

[Signal 11]

I've come across the #DroptheT hashtag this morning, presumably referring to LGBT ...Does anyone know much about it?

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/10/christian-rights-new-strategy-divide-conquer-lgbt-community/

“For all of its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile, and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them,” said Meg Kilgannon, a parent and director of Concerned Parents and Educators of Fairfax County, during a panel discussion called “Transgender Ideology in Public Schools: Parents Fight Back.”
[...]
“Gender identity on its own is just a bridge too far. If you separate the T from the alphabet soup, we’ll have more success,” Kilgannon added.
[...]
Attendees were also told to wrap their transphobic rhetoric in the language of feminism, claiming gender identity is a concept offensive to women.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The Christian right’s new strategy: Divide and conquer the LGBT community

That seems like blatant piggy backing and exploiting an existing campaign/situation doesn't it? The other links go back much further FWICS...

“For all of its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile, and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them,”

Cards on the table there I think.

I also wonder how big and how much support the #DroptheT campaign actually has from within the LBGTQ+ community.

 

[smokedout]

Really? I must either know a lot of unusual people or this is crass stereotyping.

Are social roles and interests not part of how gender is imposed then? Is it just about frocks or trousers?

 

[Shechemite]

Are social roles and interests not part of how gender is imposed then?

Of course who they are. Who’s argued otherwise?

Are you saying now that those who don’t conform to socially imposed gender roles/interests are trans (or not Cis)?

 

[8ball]

Of course who they are. Who’s argued otherwise?

Are you saying now that those who don’t conform to socially imposed gender roles/interests are trans (or not Cis)?

They are demigenderqueerambigurecipriverse.

 

[smokedout]

Of course who they are. Who’s argued otherwise?

Are you saying now that those who don’t conform to socially imposed gender roles/interests are trans (or not Cis)?

No I quite clearly said that gender is made up of appearance, mannerisms, speech patterns, interests and social roles, and from that combination it is usually very easy to identify whether someone is performing the male or female gender role.

 

[smokedout]

When I was young and I sat with my legs apart I'd be told off. Later I found that was because of an inference of promiscuity. The kind of moment when you realise that it's not what is in your head or your words that really counts. You become self-conscious and that colours your behaviour. Later on, someone comes along and calls you "gender conforming" or cis . you do it because there is something in your head that tells you are a woman not because you've been compelled to it. Nah...

I completely accept that gender is imposed, and that usually trans people simply switch gender rather than reject it, although I was including non-binary people under the trans umbrella.

But as a taxonomical term, is it fair to label someone cis if their gender performance is easily identifiable with their biological sex, and they do not experience gender dysphoria, even if it is a label they reject? I've conceded there are some people who fall between the cis/trans camps, I'd suggest weepiper might be one, but a lot of people who reject the cis label have not actually rejected their assigned gender - they are still visibly the gender they were assigned due to their biological sex.

And I'm only really interested in it as a taxonomical term. I recognise it is often used in an ideological way, and often pejoratively, much like white, black, het and other taxonomical descriptors, but I'm not sure that means it shouldn't exist. I've used cis and non-trans interchangeably on this thread, but 'cis' feels better as a word and I suspect that any term would end up being attacked - and spat as a weapon by the more annoying trans supporters. But there has to be a term, it's impossible to really examine transgenderism without a word that means not transgender.

 

[Sea Star]

Insisting that cis means gender conforming, or anything other than 'not trans' is not going to let you any closer to understanding what trans people experience.

Refusal to acknowledge that there are masculine or butch trans women and there are feminine trans men is just going to tie you up in knots.

Not acknowledging that gender identity and gender expression are different things will prevent you from being able to even listen to what trans people say.

And you wonder why we can't debate this stuff with people who won't even give us the basic respect of believing that we're not lying, that we're not making this stuff up, we're adults who have lived this and suffered by it, and that the unique experiences of trans people also gives us unique insight.

 

[Athos]

Insisting that cis means gender conforming, or anything other than 'not trans' is not going to let you any closer to understanding what trans people experience.

Refusal to acknowledge that there are masculine or butch trans women and there are feminine trans men is just going to tie you up in knots.

Not acknowledging that gender identity and gender expression are different things will prevent you from being able to even listen to what trans people say.

And you wonder why we can't debate this stuff with people who won't even give us the basic respect of believing that we're not lying, that we're not making this stuff up, we're adults who have lived this and suffered by it, and that the unique experiences of trans people also gives us unique insight.

Please would you share some of that insight by explaining what you mean when you say 'gender identity'? And how it differs from 'gender', 'gender roles', and 'gender expression'?