Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[8ball]

Not acknowledging that gender identity and gender expression are different things will prevent you from being able to even listen to what trans people say.

I'm not sure we're all meaning the same thing by the term 'gender identity'...

 

[Sue]

Are social roles and interests not part of how gender is imposed then? Is it just about frocks or trousers?

Of course they are. But what about people whose social roles and interests don't conform to what is apparently expected by their gender?

 

[Pickman's model]

And you wonder why we can't debate this stuff with people who won't even give us the basic respect of believing that we're not lying, that we're not making this stuff up, we're adults who have lived this and suffered by it, and that the unique experiences of trans people also gives us unique insight.

unique insight into what?

 

[Athos]

I completely accept that gender is imposed, and that usually trans people simply switch gender rather than reject it, although I was including non-binary people under the trans umbrella.

But as a taxonomical term, is it fair to label someone cis if their gender performance is easily identifiable with their biological sex, and they do not experience gender dysphoria, even if it is a label they reject? I've conceded there are some people who fall between the cis/trans camps, I'd suggest weepiper might be one, but a lot of people who reject the cis label have not actually rejected their assigned gender - they are still visibly the gender they were assigned due to their biological sex.

And I'm only really interested in it as a taxonomical term. I recognise it is often used in an ideological way, and often pejoratively, much like white, black, het and other taxonomical descriptors, but I'm not sure that means it shouldn't exist. I've used cis and non-trans interchangeably on this thread, but 'cis' feels better as a word and I suspect that any term would end up being attacked - and spat as a weapon by the more annoying trans supporters. But there has to be a term, it's impossible to really examine transgenderism without a word that means not transgender.

This doesn't work. Closeted trans people don't become cis by virtue of the fact that their gender appears to match their sex. And it doesn't account for e.g. butch trans women.

More importantly, that's not what trans people report. They say that what defines their gender (and, so, makes them trans) is an internal identity, not the outward trappings.

'Not trans' is an adequate description of people who are not trans. There's no need for another word. Especially since it can be mistaken for a binary, when you've conceded some people are neither. And given some of those to whom it is applied take offence.

The biggest issue with using it as an antonym for trans is that it implies that cis people have an internal gender identity which matches their sex, whereas many people report having no such gender identity.

 

[Shechemite]

Insisting that cis means gender conforming

Who is doing this?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'd heard about this but it didn't make sense to me. Is sexuality the pinnacle of gender performativity?

Which part?

This: This is not the case, some of the people who reject this term the strongest are lesbians and gay men, who are about as gender non-conforming as you can get.

Or this: Also, on the basis that part of the woman's gender role is to be submissive, any woman who has ever told a man to 'fuck off' is definitely not gender conformant!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm tempted to conclude that Miranda Yardley doesnt have enough pigeon holes, those that are available are too limited in depth, and the system is way too rigid to respond to the variations actually present in the world. At best this feeble array of choices may on odd occasion reveal some awkward complication that fancier systems fear to dwell on, at worst it leads to something resembling a parody of historical medical literature concerning homosexual tendencies.

On the contrary, I'm not into pigeon holes or 983 different gender identities. I think people should just be themselves without complying with stereotypes or labels, and I've said this zillions of times. I particularly worry for those who feel the need to describe themselves as a collection of different stereotypes, how can you have a fulfilling relationship with other people, never mind yourself, if you see individuals as fragmented collections of identities and stereotypes, rather than as rounded individuals?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On the contrary, I'm not into pigeon holes or 983 different gender identities. I think people should just be themselves without complying with stereotypes or labels, and I've said this zillions of times. I particularly worry for those who feel the need to describe themselves as a collection of different stereotypes, how can you have a fulfilling relationship with other people, never mind yourself, if you see individuals as fragmented collections of identities and stereotypes, rather than as rounded individuals?

How does that attitude fit with your insistence on calling trans women 'he'? Is that not you labelling them?

 

[bimble]

unique insight into what?

What it feels like to be a woman, perhaps, because I haven’t got a clue.

 

[Pickman's model]

What it feels like to be a woman, perhaps, because I haven’t got a clue.

that much at least is clear.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

How does that attitude fit with your insistence on calling trans women 'he'? Is that not you labelling them?

It's a reflection of reality, not identity. It's not me than makes the rule that 'trans women' are male.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a reflection of reality, not identity. It's not me than makes the rule that 'trans women' are male.

so that's a 'yes'.

 

[elbows]

It's a reflection of reality, not identity. It's not me than makes the rule that 'trans women' are male.

Well I dont think I'll be wasting any more time on your strange ideas about who makes the rules. Especially as yours dont even match the rich variations found in the world, and attempts to bring this to your attention are met with crap copouts about outliers.

 

[Wilf]

It's a reflection of reality, not identity. It's not me than makes the rule that 'trans women' are male.

It's a contested reality though. I'm not chipping in to say what that 'reality' is, just reiterating the point made to you before: why use he or male when you know that will hurt someone and when gender free language is available. As someone said to you a page or two back (sorry, can't remember who) your own views and position is not compromised where you to go with 'they' or similar.

 

[andysays]

I'm not sure we're all meaning the same thing by the term 'gender identity'...

I'm not even sure that certain people are using that and other terms consistently from one post to the next, TBH

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not even sure that certain people are using that and other terms consistently from one post to the next, TBH

Yeh, I've been fluid in my meaning of gender identity throughout

 

[Ralph Llama]

unique insight into what?

Are you taking the piss ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you taking the piss ?

You certainly are

 

[Ralph Llama]

Where you just talking the piss?

 

[snadge]

Where you just talking the piss?

Why would you think he is taking the piss?

I don't think I would like to work out what 'talking' the piss is

 

[Pickman's model]

Where you just talking the piss?

 

[Ralph Llama]

OK. Sorry. Wrong end of stick.

 

[Pickman's model]

OK. Sorry. Wrong end of stick.

I quite like you and hope you stick around

 

[Ralph Llama]

Thanks. Exuse me I thought you where just being propper wrong! I need some sleep. I will sleep now

 

[Magnus McGinty]

This is weird now. Especially Pickmans being nice to someone.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

It's a contested reality though. I'm not chipping in to say what that 'reality' is, just reiterating the point made to you before: why use he or male when you know that will hurt someone and when gender free language is available. As someone said to you a page or two back (sorry, can't remember who) your own views and position is not compromised where you to go with 'they' or similar.

It's contested ideologically, sure. Nothing in science makes men women.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm not even sure that certain people are using that and other terms consistently from one post to the next, TBH

'Gender identity' is just culturally constructed thoughts and feelings. It can also be interpreted as 'sexism'.

 

[bimble]

'Gender identity' is just culturally constructed thoughts and feelings. It can also be interpreted as 'sexism'.

In the absence of this (a strong feeling of 'female gender identity') can you say anything about what is it that made you go through all those painful surgeries?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's contested ideologically, sure. Nothing in science makes men women.

Science doesn't define words. You are considering your own ideology to be naturalised here.

 

[mojo pixy]

It's contested ideologically, sure. Nothing in biology makes men women.

FIFY. Other sciences are available where men can be women and women men, particularly the social ones. Psychology, for instance. Linguistics. Anthropology. Sociology. Material Reality is only part of ''Reality'' the lived experience.

It's really too late to go on with this, I'm working very early tomorrow.