Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Magnus McGinty]

It does seem to me that our shared meaning of the term cis has by no means been worked out yet. It's a new term, so not so surprising. I see it used in sensible, sober discussions of trans issues in a very neutral way, really meaning no more than 'not trans': not suffering from a significant degree of gender dysphoria or wanting to change your gender identity. And it has a clear utility in that context, providing a neutral term for 'not-trans'. But it is also clear that some think it means something more than that, containing within it the implication that you are happy with your gender identity. It doesn't help that it's a term that's used aggressively in an 'us and them' way, especially when someone is trying to explain your existence to you by calling you that, which is always pretty infuriating. Twitter has a lot to answer for in this respect, imo, and it appears that it is often there that people first hear the term cis or cisgender, rather than reading it in a considered academic article.

It’s mostly problematic due to identity politics - where your politics and identity are apparently inextricably linked. So if there’s a disagreement rather than it coming from different schools of thought it’s because you belong to x group (or series of groups). I haven’t heard it outside of this context.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

In my experience some people who reject the term cis when you meet them are very typical for their gender - they are reproducing or performing gender whilst claiming to reject it.

This is not the case, some of the people who reject this term the strongest are lesbians and gay men, who are about as gender non-conforming as you can get. Also, on the basis that part of the woman's gender role is to be submissive, any woman who has ever told a man to 'fuck off' is definitely not gender conformant!

 

[8ball]

It does seem to me that our shared meaning of the term cis has by no means been worked out yet. It's a new term, so not so surprising. I see it used in sensible, sober discussions of trans issues in a very neutral way, really meaning no more than 'not trans': not suffering from a significant degree of gender dysphoria or wanting to change your gender identity. And it has a clear utility in that context, providing a neutral term for 'not-trans'. But it is also clear that some think it means something more than that, containing within it the implication that you are happy with your gender identity.

It’s also used in the infuriating assignment of levels of “privilege” that people use as an excuse for not listening to each other.

 

[8ball]

This is quite common, as is younger children using a pet name.

Ah, right. Not experienced that myself but I can see the sense in it.

 

[Wilf]

I go and watch telly for a bit and come back to this clusterfuck.

I know - and it's been such a happy go lucky, let's split the difference thread right up to what we will all hope was a blip.

 

[8ball]

This is not the case, some of the people who reject this term the strongest are lesbians and gay men, who are about as gender non-conforming as you can get!

Not sure about gay people being necessarily gender non-conforming.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Not sure about gay people being necessarily gender non-conforming.

Having a partner of the same sex is about as gender non-conforming as you can get. Also, have you met many lesbians and/or gay men? It's their gender non-conformity that stands out. Especially with children (although that's a whole other can of worms...).

 

[Treacle Toes]

People are often slow to apologise when they are angry. I think if R drops the p-word in future it’s fair to draw a line under it.

The P -word is commonly short for/a substitute for Paki. I've never used that to describe anyone, nor would I. LET'S HAVE THAT CLEAR.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s mostly problematic due to identity politics - where your politics and identity are apparently inextricably linked. So if there’s a disagreement rather than it coming from different schools of thought it’s because you belong to x group (or series of groups). I haven’t heard it outside of this context.

Some clearly feel that the existence of the term is a reinforcement of gender boundaries: 'I feel that I'm on the wrong side of the boundary, you feel that you're on the right side of it', leaving little room for those who dislike the boundary. I think that's very unfortunate, as I've said before, because I have seen it used outside that context, without these value-laden implications, and language does matter in these things, I think: having a term for 'not-X' that isn't 'normal'. At its worst, objecting to the existence of the term cis can sound like an objection to the existence of the term trans, because it usually doesn't contain a suggestion for what other term people ought to use instead.

 

[8ball]

Having a partner of the same sex is about as gender non-conforming as you can get. Also, have you met many lesbians and/or gay men? It's their gender non-conformity that stands out.

My gaydar is admittedly poor, but I don’t consider sexuality part of gender at all.

 

[8ball]

The P -word is commonly short for/a substitute for Paki. I've never used that to describe anyone, nor would I. LET'S HAVE THAT CLEAR.

I’d assumed it was clear which word I was talking about and wasn’t aware that ‘p-word’ was common parlance for something else.

Happy to confirm I’ve never witnessed you say any such thing.

That’s the thing with racial slurs and their sub-types, there are a lot of them to learn if you want to effectively avoid ever tripping up.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I’d assumed it was clear which word I was talking about and wasn’t aware that ‘p-word’ was common parlance for something else.

Happy to confirm I’ve never witnessed you say any such thing.

That’s the thing with racial slurs and their sub-types, there are a lot of them to learn if you want to effectively avoid ever tripping up.

I appreciate the clarity.

 

[weepiper]

I dislike the word 'cis'. I am a straight woman but people who don't know me often assume I'm a lesbian, I guess because I am outwardly non-conforming which puts me in their mental lesbian box - by which I mean I wear baggy jeans, trainers and a hoody 99% of the time, I work in a massively male-dominated industry and am generally pretty grubby and oily, I don't ever wear makeup anymore, I can't be arsed with plucking my eyebrows or any of that. About the only stereotypical female appearance thing I do is shave my legs, but tbh only because I wear shorts at work and it makes cleaning dirty oily marks off my knees easier. I have many times been mistaken for a man at work when my hair's been short or I'm wearing a hat. I don't feel like it's a pose or a copout being how I am, in fact I rather feel it's the opposite. It's not an easy road to travel and it's taken 40 years to get comfortable with it and stop feeling like I have to 'perform' womanhood outwardly. I am a woman, and fuck anyone who says I'm any less of one or that I'm just striking a pose or attention-seeking because I don't conform to their mental rules for that word.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Some clearly feel that the existence of the term is a reinforcement of gender boundaries: 'I feel that I'm on the wrong side of the boundary, you feel that you're on the right side of it', leaving little room for those who dislike the boundary. I think that's very unfortunate, as I've said before, because I have seen it used outside that context, without these value-laden implications, and language does matter in these things, I think: having a term for 'not-X' that isn't 'normal'. At its worst, objecting to the existence of the term cis can sound like an objection to the existence of the term trans, because it usually doesn't contain a suggestion for what other term people ought to use instead.

I always hated the term non-white, because why should there be an opposite of white? And why lump so many people in either group and for what reason? PoC is the fashionable way of saying the same thing nowadays.

 

[smokedout]

Having a partner of the same sex is about as gender non-conforming as you can get. Also, have you met many lesbians and/or gay men? It's their gender non-conformity that stands out. Especially with children (although that's a whole other can of worms...).

Sexuality is only one very loose facet of gender, and lots of gay men very actively and proudly perform the male gender, in fact most mainstream gay sexuality is highly male gendered - so much so that many gay clubs once would not admit trans people.

Some rad fems and butch lesbians, and some feminine gay men I would concede do not perform gender to the usual extent, but it's rare to meet someone who is not trans who radically appears to reject gender. If all other things were equal or obscured such as facial features and body shape, the average person would easily be able to identify their gender of almost everyone who is not trans based on their clothes, mannerisms, speech patterns, interests and social role.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I always hated the term non-white, because why should there be an opposite of white? And why lump so many people in either group and for what reason? PoC is the fashionable way of saying the same thing nowadays.

And sometimes there just isn't a good solution. I agree that 'non-white' is clumsy. But so is PoC.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The issue with the term non-white is that it centres whiteness as normal and default. It sets up and reinforces a power relation and others anyone who isn't White.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The issue with the term non-white is that it centres whiteness as normal and default. It sets up and reinforces a power relation and others anyone who isn't White.

But every other permutaion of it does the same. Which socialists would argue against given power isn’t neatly distributed via ethnicity.

 

[8ball]

I dislike the word 'cis'..

I see where you’re coming from, but I think the term ‘cis’ just came from the Latinate opposite of ‘trans’. We all accept it doesn’t relate to the performative aspects of gender you... perform.

 

[Treacle Toes]

But every other permeation of it does the same. Which socialists would argue against given power isn’t neatly distributed via ethnicity.

In some conversations and for some situations power is distributed via ethnicity....for those conversations nobody should be arguing against it for the sake of arguing because they are socialist.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I dislike the word 'cis'. I am a straight woman but people who don't know me often assume I'm a lesbian, I guess because I am outwardly non-conforming which puts me in their mental lesbian box - by which I mean I wear baggy jeans, trainers and a hoody 99% of the time, I work in a massively male-dominated industry and am generally pretty grubby and oily, I don't ever wear makeup anymore, I can't be arsed with plucking my eyebrows or any of that. About the only stereotypical female appearance thing I do is shave my legs, but tbh only because I wear shorts at work and it makes cleaning dirty oily marks off my knees easier. I have many times been mistaken for a man at work when my hair's been short or I'm wearing a hat. I don't feel like it's a pose or a copout being how I am, in fact I rather feel it's the opposite. It's not an easy road to travel and it's taken 40 years to get comfortable with it and stop feeling like I have to 'perform' womanhood outwardly. I am a woman, and fuck anyone who says I'm any less of one or that I'm just striking a pose or attention-seeking because I don't conform to their mental rules for that word.

Yeah, I appreciate that, and if anyone does use the term implying that they have a set of mental rules for how men or women should be, then yes they can fuck off.

I do think we get stuck here sometimes because the thing I see reported repeatedly by trans people is the inner feeling that they are the 'other' gender, which exists independently of any performance aspect of gender, but it is equally clear that there are people who don't relate to that idea at all. I'm not sure I relate to that idea, although I have no problem with the term cis.

 

[8ball]

The issue with the term non-white is that it centres whiteness as normal and default. It sets up and reinforces a power relation and others anyone who isn't White.

PoC does the same. Though I guess it’s slightly better.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

In some conversations and for some situations power is distributed via ethnicity....for those conversations nobody should be arguing against it for the sake of arguing because they are socialist.

In some contexts. In a global one it isn’t.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The issue with the term non-white is that it centres whiteness as normal and default. It sets up and reinforces a power relation and others anyone who isn't White.

Doesn't 'PoC' do a similar thing, though? It also basically lumps together everyone who isn't white. I kind of recoil at the word 'colour' in there.

 

[Treacle Toes]

In some contexts.

That's what I said.

 

[Sue]

If all other things were equal or obscured such as facial features and body shape, the average person would easily be able to identify their gender of almost everyone who is not trans based on their clothes, mannerisms, speech patterns, interests and social role.

Really? I must either know a lot of unusual people or this is crass stereotyping.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Sexuality is only one very loose facet of gender, and lots of gay men very actively and proudly perform the male gender, in fact most mainstream gay sexuality is highly male gendered - so much so that many gay clubs once would not admit trans people.

Some rad fems and butch lesbians, and some feminine gay men I would concede do not perform gender to the usual extent, but it's rare to meet someone who is not trans who radically appears to reject gender.

You really do sound like you've never moved within the gay scene. Sexual orientation is very much tied to gender roles, think of the defaults applied to children of cars and sports for boys and dolls and tea sets for girls. Speak to most homosexual adults and you'll find a history of gender non-conformity in addition to their choice of partner: let's not forget it's gender roles which create and incubate misogyny and homophobia.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Doesn't 'PoC' do a similar thing, though? It also basically lumps together everyone who isn't white. I kind of recoil at the word 'colour' in there.

Why are you asking me? I didn't coin the term

In a way it does...but in other ways it doesn't....it centres people who are not White, it acknowledges the tendency for Whiteness to be a non-colour/invisibleand tries to flip it... it is akin to using the term 'black' or 'brown' and mostly used when talking about shared experiences, not to flatten and lump together, merely focus on what is commonplace. It's not a be all/end all description. Just like White isn't.

I don't recoil at the use of 'colour', I suspect I am more used to thinking about myself in those terms (ethnicity/phenotype/colour) though. I don't think many White people in Europe have had that experience tbh and you are certainly not the first White person I have experienced recoiling in that way.

 

[8ball]

Doesn't 'PoC' do a similar thing, though? It also basically lumps together everyone who isn't white. I kind of recoil at the word 'colour' in there.

Had this conversation with my Mum at Christmas. I said I flinch whenever she says ‘coloured’ but she says since she is ‘coloured’ and from an age when that was considered the most polite term, she’s going to carry on using it.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I dislike the word 'cis'. I am a straight woman but people who don't know me often assume I'm a lesbian, I guess because I am outwardly non-conforming which puts me in their mental lesbian box - by which I mean I wear baggy jeans, trainers and a hoody 99% of the time, I work in a massively male-dominated industry and am generally pretty grubby and oily, I don't ever wear makeup anymore, I can't be arsed with plucking my eyebrows or any of that.

Another problem with 'cis' of course is that it's used to suggest that females have privilege over 'trans women' (aka trans-identified males) through the system of gender (which is used to oppress females from birth).