Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It was something that Brianna's mother said. She expressed concern about the families.

Her mum's a nice person, but it's not a given that it would happen, indeed it's incredibly rare that it does.

 

[Red Cat]

Their age means the emphasis is on rehabilitation; that's why minors are not usually named, it takes account that they are still developing.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If they're ever released it will be under new names - which the public won't know - so don't see the point in naming them now.

Nope, if that were to have happen the judge would have stated it when naming them, in the same way they did with Venables and Thompson and also Mary Bell.

Should either of this pair ever be judged fit for release, under current legislation they would be entitled to change their names via deed poll, imo people convicted of serious crimes should not be permitted to do so.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Their age means the emphasis is on rehabilitation; that's why minors are not usually named, it takes account that they are still developing.

This is false, children convicted of murder are usually named.

 

[smokedout]

I'm not sure what the law is, but yes, they would probably be named once they reach 18. And that's okay. By the time they reach 18, the immediate anger would have died down.

No, not all killers remain anonymous, but it's fairly usual not to name children who commit murders, is it?

I think the judge's point (although talking from memory I'd have to go back and check) is that there was nothing she could do to prevent them being named when they turned 18 and given that's not much over a year away and the public interest in the case they might as well get it over with now. I don't really see how it helps anyone tbh, although everyone local must already know who they are, so it would (and has in some corners) leak out anyway.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I think the judge's point (although talking from memory I'd have to go back and check) is that there was nothing she could do to prevent them being named when they turned 18 and given that's not much over a year away and the public interest in the case they might as well get it over with now. I don't really see how it helps anyone tbh, although everyone local must already know who they are, so it would (and has in some corners) leak out anyway.

exactly

 

[Red Cat]

This is false, children convicted of murder are usually named.

This is not false and neither is the reason I gave. Children under 18 are not to be identified except in exceptional circumstances. Exceptional circumstances is not an objective measure, so will differ depending. I think with Venables and Thompson, that the names were already common knowledge.

 

[belboid]

This is false, children convicted of murder are usually named.

That is completely untrue. Anonymity is only overridden in ‘exceptional circumstances’. In this case it was because “naming Jenkinson and Ratcliffe was necessary for the public to understand “how children could do something so dreadful”.”

 

[Red Cat]

It doesn't help the public understand anything knowing their names though. It's a really odd reason.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

That is completely untrue. Anonymity is only overridden in ‘exceptional circumstances’. In this case it was because “naming Jenkinson and Ratcliffe was necessary for the public to understand “how children could do something so dreadful”.”

No it's not. Children being convicted of murder is an exceedingly rare event, thankfully, which is why they are nearly always named. They may then be given life-long anonymity, such as Bell, Venables and Thompson, but they are still named and their images at the time of their arrest are released.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

This is not false and neither is the reason I gave. Children under 18 are not to be identified except in exceptional circumstances. Exceptional circumstances is not an objective measure, so will differ depending. I think with Venables and Thompson, that the names were already common knowledge.

The names are always common knowledge locally. Always.

Children are granted anonymity when convicted of crimes, rightly so as the aim (as it is supposedly for most sentences) is for rehabilitation. However the only sentence for murder is life (His Maj's Pleasure for kids) which includes a usually substantial term of incarceration plus the rest of their life on licence, so they will very much not be children when they get out (Venables & Thompson kind of were, as they were so incredibly young when they did for James Bulger.

It is the rarity of children committing murder that leads to their naming though, the judge does so as an example to others.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What a court must weigh up before naming a child:

1. In deciding whether to impose or thereafter to lift reporting restrictions, the court will consider whether there are good reasons for naming the defendant;
2. In reaching that decision, the court will give considerable weight to the age of the offender and to the potential damage to any young person of public identification as a criminal before the offender has the benefit or burden of adulthood;
3. By virtue of section 44 of the 1933 Act, the court must ‘have regard to the welfare of the child or young person’;
4. The prospect of being named in court with the accompanying disgrace is a powerful deterrent and the naming of a defendant in the context of his punishment serves as a deterrent to
   others. These deterrents are proper objectives for the court to seek;
5. There is a strong public interest in open justice and in the public knowing as much as possible about what has happened in court, including the identity of those who have committed crime;
6. The weight to be attributed to the different factors may shift at different stages of the proceedings and, in particular, after the defendant has been found, or pleads, guilty and is
   sentenced. It may then be appropriate to place greater weight on the interest of the public in knowing the identity of those who have committed crimes, particularly serious and detestable crimes;
7. [where applicable] The fact that an appeal has been made may be a material consideration.

Which is why kids that murder are usually named.

 

[belboid]

No it's not. Children being convicted of murder is an exceedingly rare event, thankfully, which is why they are nearly always named. They may then be given life-long anonymity, such as Bell, Venables and Thompson, but they are still named and their images at the time of their arrest are released.

You can only name two cases from 1968 and 1993. Nothing from the last thirty years. Every news report states that naming them is unusual.

 

[Raheem]

You can only name two cases from 1968 and 1993. Nothing from the last thirty years. Every news report states that naming them is unusual.

Can you think of a case where someone under 18 was convicted of murder and then not named?

 

[Thora]

Can you think of a case where someone under 18 was convicted of murder and then not named?

These teenagers weren’t named

Two 14-year-olds sentenced for murder of Oliver Stephens, 13 | UK news | The Guardian

Girl, 14, also sentenced for manslaughter after fatal stabbing in Reading in January

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Raheem]

These teenagers weren’t named

Two 14-year-olds sentenced for murder of Oliver Stephens, 13 | UK news | The Guardian

Girl, 14, also sentenced for manslaughter after fatal stabbing in Reading in January

amp.theguardian.com

Not murder, though.

(I'm not saying there definitely are no such cases, but I don't think anonymity is anything close to standard practice after conviction for murder.)

 

[Thora]

Not murder, though.

Yes

If you search for teenagers convicted of murder, most do seem to say they aren’t named for legal reasons/due to their age.

https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2023/november/haverhill--teenager-sentenced-for-murder/

 

[Raheem]

Yes

Apologies, I misled myself because one of them was convicted of manslaughter.

 

[belboid]

Can you think of a case where someone under 18 was convicted of murder and then not named?

I can only think of the Sophie Lancaster case. It is a very rare offense and a quick google doesn’t bring up any other cases. But that’s what I’d expect anyway, if the crimes weren’t horrific enough to make headlines and names are to be withheld, we wouldn’t be likely to hear about it, would we?

 

[Raheem]

I can only think of the Sophie Lancaster case.

Seems the two attackers who were convicted of murder were then named. Only the three who were convicted of lesser offences got anonymity.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Surely if child killers are rare, we’d be more likely to hear about it?

 

[SpookyFrank]

.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I can only think of the Sophie Lancaster case. It is a very rare offense and a quick google doesn’t bring up any other cases. But that’s what I’d expect anyway, if the crimes weren’t horrific enough to make headlines and names are to be withheld, we wouldn’t be likely to hear about it, would we?

Will Cornick, to name one off the cuff.

The murder needs to be exceptional, rather than run of the mill (which doesn't sound right when applied to murder, of course)

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I can only think of the Sophie Lancaster case. I

Brendon Harris and Ryan Herbert. Named.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

From watching the news it appears that they would have had anonymity, but media companies campaigned to be able to name them. Fucking tabloids.

I absolutely fail to see any good reason for naming them.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Meh. Don't raise your kids to be murderers next time then.

Christ - you're a teacher, yes? Unbelievable.

 

[marshall]

Christ - you're a teacher, yes? Unbelievable.

Scary, eh

 

[PTK]

Meh. Don't raise your kids to be murderers next time then.

What did you have your empathy bypass?

 

[PTK]

Christ - you're a teacher, yes? Unbelievable.

I do wonder if people who demonstrate a lack of empathy should be allowed to be teachers.

 

[chandlerp]

The names are always common knowledge locally. Always.

Children are granted anonymity when convicted of crimes, rightly so as the aim (as it is supposedly for most sentences) is for rehabilitation. However the only sentence for murder is life (His Maj's Pleasure for kids) which includes a usually substantial term of incarceration plus the rest of their life on licence, so they will very much not be children when they get out (Venables & Thompson kind of were, as they were so incredibly young when they did for James Bulger.

It is the rarity of children committing murder that leads to their naming though, the judge does so as an example to others.

I've known their names for almost a year