The information comes from police forces, and violence against the person without injury would mean an assault. And its pretty easy to see the info you are looking for, it's here
Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%
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The information comes from police forces, and violence against the person without injury would mean an assault. And its pretty easy to see the info you are looking for, it's here
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Sorry I missed this.
No I did not ignore your point. I made the point that the single sex exemptions are being ignored, see Bristol University for one who have posters in the female toilets stating if you think someone should not be there, get over it, pretty much
bristol university gender neutral toilets picture - Google Search:
See the schools in Wales where girls are not attending due to mixed sex toilet provision
Pupils are missing school because they don't like mixed sex toilets
And how many woke restaurants are now celebrating gender neutral facilities?
We've derailed the thread again. I will read the doc you linked. I will also be honest and say it comes from Bristol University who have the posters linked to above
JudithB
Well-Known Member
No, I'm showing you the chart that was in the hate crime statistics and as I'm on my phone that was the easiest way to do it because you seem to keep missing it.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
So, you're upset about a sign you saw on the internet and you think that's pertinent to a discussion about hate crimes?
JudithB
Well-Known Member
The sign implies women and girls should not trust their instincts, so yes it is upsetting
I think it is pertinent to the research Clair linked to because it is carried out by the same University
JudithB
Well-Known Member
And I keep saying I am going to read it. Sorry mummy has to do other things right now and can't give you all the attention you want
ETA I just got a forum award. I must be doing something right...
ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
Surely it fairly obvious who knows whats counted and where the information comes from . Its not all pulled from thin air.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I bet the researchers are the same people who deal with toilet signage too. That's how universities always work IME.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
I am logging off. I have children wanting and needing fresh air. See you later
ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
Ok ,thanks for letting me know have a nice time blowing the cobwebs away and when you get back to the thread perhaps you can stop posting derailing bollocks and discuss the actual thread subject.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Shit, a final point popped into my head and my mind would not rest until I posted it. This wont go on, even if another point pops into my head later I wont make it, I'm done. I know that saying this is proof of nothing, my silence will be the proof and I regret that the silence has still not begun.
When analysing articles and comedy there is the thing where you look at whether they are 'punching down or punching up' - I dont know if there is some proper terminology to describe that, but its a question of whether the statements, jokes or whatever are speaking truth to power (punching up) or is shitting on (punching down at) those who are already vulnerable, lacking power and defences from the misuse of power by others.
A big part of the 'constant negative framing' which I mentioned in an earlier post is that this framing also enables those who are punching down at trans people to claim they are actually punching up at male, patriarchal power. Obviously the full reality is complicated, but there is punching down going on, constantly, and to pretend otherwise is to never get to the bottom of the matter.
When analysing articles and comedy there is the thing where you look at whether they are 'punching down or punching up' - I dont know if there is some proper terminology to describe that, but its a question of whether the statements, jokes or whatever are speaking truth to power (punching up) or is shitting on (punching down at) those who are already vulnerable, lacking power and defences from the misuse of power by others.
A big part of the 'constant negative framing' which I mentioned in an earlier post is that this framing also enables those who are punching down at trans people to claim they are actually punching up at male, patriarchal power. Obviously the full reality is complicated, but there is punching down going on, constantly, and to pretend otherwise is to never get to the bottom of the matter.
Athos
Well-Known Member
You know that's a cop out; lots of your posts on this thread have been at least as far off topic. Why you scared to answer the question?
ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
Is it relevant to the thread, if not perhaps it better discussed on a differant thread.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
There was talk on another thread recently about this way of thinking about how misogyny works and how "low level behaviours" can be seen as legitimising those further up:
There are similar pyramids that have been discussed in terms of racism and homophobia that I have seen, and while I haven't seen a similar version for transphobia, similar mechanisms would seem to apply.
Carefully discussing the legal situation with regard to laws on self-identification is something I think is important so long as misinformation is countered robustly ( Clair De Lune and one or two others have tried to open this discussion in detail, but it seems to just be countered by claims that some group or other wants something very different).
But unless anyone has a compelling reason for saying that generating ill-feeling on a "just asking important questions" ticket excuses misgendering or dark evidence-free insinuations then I think they need a compelling argument for why the above dynamic should apply to misogyny (and other forms of prejudice) but not to transphobia.
There are similar pyramids that have been discussed in terms of racism and homophobia that I have seen, and while I haven't seen a similar version for transphobia, similar mechanisms would seem to apply.
Carefully discussing the legal situation with regard to laws on self-identification is something I think is important so long as misinformation is countered robustly ( Clair De Lune and one or two others have tried to open this discussion in detail, but it seems to just be countered by claims that some group or other wants something very different).
But unless anyone has a compelling reason for saying that generating ill-feeling on a "just asking important questions" ticket excuses misgendering or dark evidence-free insinuations then I think they need a compelling argument for why the above dynamic should apply to misogyny (and other forms of prejudice) but not to transphobia.
abstract1
shitting miracles
I’m having considerable difficulty with this, because nothing you have posted in recent days says “good faith”.
You have told one woman she’s not the right kind of feminist. It always strikes me as an odd kind of feminism that dismisses, undermines and belittles other women for having a different viewpoint.
You’ve suggested the “intellectual” debate is only to be had in threads you started. Intellectualising the lived experience of others is part of the problem imo.
Your use of language is fascinating and questionable, in equal measure - sweetheart, champ etc
You are passive aggressive and patronising - “sorry, mummy has other things to to...”
I don’t really give a fuck about you and your agenda, but I do care about this place and people here who I have known and observed over many years - many of whom are women taking time to engage with you in an authentic manner, even if I disagree with their viewpoint - they deserve more than your contempt, and it is contempt, isn’t JudithB?
I see you!
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Jesus Mary and Joseph
You're as dishonest as the day is long.
Those posters were put up in 2014 as part of a campaign. There will not be a single toilet at Bristol uni containing one of those posters now.
E2A it was a ONE WEEK campaign in 2014, as can be found by visiting the telegraph via JudithB's link. Incidentally I think the b cannot stand for butler, as has been suggested, but the earthier bullshitter
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Having interacted fruitlessly with lots of GC people online I can confirm it is always like this, even with those who style themselves as moderates*. Its always relentless misinformation, and as soon as that information is challenged or interrogated its onto the next thing, because the so called 'facts' dont really matter, the intent is to keep those supportive of trans rights permanently on the back foot whilst hoping that some of the misinformation sticks with those observing the discussion.
That's why it rankles when people say GC feminism is just a bunch of concerned women with a few bad apples who are genuinely transphobic. That is not my experience at all, and whilst there are obviously women on here who criticise gender and do have sincere concerns, those within the GC movement who are active, either online, or in real life as part of organised groups, are pretty much always like this. It's a slew of misinformation and all precision targetted to damage how society views trans people as much as possible. That's why I believe that rising crime and abuse of trans peoeple, and if the increasingly frequent social media reports coming in indicate anything, quite possibly gender non conforming people as well, is to some degree the responsibility of the GC movement. Having said that the right wing press should probably take the bulk of the blame (not that you can see much difference between the two camps when it comes to trans and even LGBT matters these days).
*Obviously quite often its much worse, and very quickly descends into open abuse and accusations of being an abuser, paedophile supporter etc.
That's why it rankles when people say GC feminism is just a bunch of concerned women with a few bad apples who are genuinely transphobic. That is not my experience at all, and whilst there are obviously women on here who criticise gender and do have sincere concerns, those within the GC movement who are active, either online, or in real life as part of organised groups, are pretty much always like this. It's a slew of misinformation and all precision targetted to damage how society views trans people as much as possible. That's why I believe that rising crime and abuse of trans peoeple, and if the increasingly frequent social media reports coming in indicate anything, quite possibly gender non conforming people as well, is to some degree the responsibility of the GC movement. Having said that the right wing press should probably take the bulk of the blame (not that you can see much difference between the two camps when it comes to trans and even LGBT matters these days).
*Obviously quite often its much worse, and very quickly descends into open abuse and accusations of being an abuser, paedophile supporter etc.
smmudge
i know the smudge is true
And as soon as you've answered all the concerns of one person, another comes along a few months later and asks them all over again.
People do have a responsibility once it's been pointed out to them that what they have read somewhere is misleading or outright lies, to question why they were suckered in in the first place and decided to spread it. I don't see a lot of people doing that once a concern has been addressed, like you say they just go on to the next thing, trying to find anything they can to support an underlying belief. That's why we don't buy the "just asking questions", because it quickly becomes blatantly obvious that they're not interested in the answers.
And the thing is lots of people do take things they read at face value, we probably all do to some extent especially when it confirms any conscious or unconscious prejudices we might have, and it's no surprise that someone who reads the thread on mumsnet they always point newbies to will come out of it hating trans people. If all that shit was true its understandable. So the rise in violence towards trans people is not the only way this damages us. I've got to have a really difficult conversation with my mum sometime soon who pretends not to be but is pretty homophobic and has always been suspicious of gender non conforming. It's a pretty safe bet she's been lapping up a lot of this shit and that conversation is not going to be any easier if she's been reading up on how trans women are desperately trying to access women's spaces to abuse women or for some form of sexual gratification and our ultimate goal is to destroy womanhood and safeguarding of children.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Let me off I feel sick!
This.
All points have been addressed repeatedly on previous threads.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You've gone all brave sir robin. Why ever can that be?
ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
Why start this up again.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
I just dm'd with someone saying I had decided not to return here but I will answer your question.
I am thinking of the community and will comply with some the suggestions made previously. This does not mean I capitulate to the ideology but I think you are all aware of my position. I am happy for anyone to dm me if they would like a civil discussion. I am not here to be bullied or to bully.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It'd be nice if you acknowledged you'd been er economical with the truth. You wouldn't want to be thought reckless with the actualité, would you
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Asking you a question is not bullying.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
No one's *starting* anything. Just a simple recognition you were mistaken in your claim that Bristol University have these posters in all their toilets, it'd be nice for you to say 'sorry, I was wrong'. So, not a new start but an end to this discussion.
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