Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%
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ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
I foolishly thought that there could be a discussion about this truly shocking rise and the primary and secondry causes behind it but all the filibustering really sucks on your will to live, I'm doing something else for a few hours, but i think it is a discussion worth having.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
D'oh stupid men innit. How could they remember to go get checked if they cant remember how words are spelled. Silly people thinking they are clever.
Women who do how much (checks feminism thread on the subject - really doesn't because it's Saturday night and we all know the answer) do so many more unpaid hours of work, are the main carers of children and old people and are so lucky to be so clever that they will see through the dehumanising and erasure of women as a word (a word that we said ok, we'll give it up - but will they let us keep female? See prev posts. Apparently not).
If you cannot name the oppressed you cannot name the oppressor.
In my lifetime this is the first time I have come across something that we are not allowed to talk about.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Nope not true. The problem is that self-ID will open the gateway. I don't believe any transwoman would abuse a woman (call me stupid) but I do believe once self-ID is in place there will be, not so many years from now, no way to stop the real abusers. They become priests, they become gym coaches, they become scout leaders. And we are breaking down safe guarding for a few trans people who feel bad using the mens etc. Trans women need to get behind women and say yes this is a real problem. It's not today. It's what it allows.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
I wasn't talking about self ID.
The topic was why do we suppose violent incidents against Trans people are on the increase and that was the only thing I was discussing. Did you mean to quote someone else?
Feminism threads get defended heavily by the mods from the same distractionary arguments. What about the menz? Etc. Etc.
It's a shame that Trans topics don't get the same protection from the inevitable... But someone with a penis will rape women if they are allowed to use our loos. Etc.
I know of a club night that has had fully mixed sex toilets for years and (no doubt because of the large number of trans people who attend) and I've never heard of any problems let alone sexual assaults. Damn I've been dragged off topic now!
I can't be bothered to dig up the raw data but if you look at the chart it then its clear that the percentage of hate crimes against transgender people which involve injury is higher than the average across the strands and possibly the highest or just behind disabled people whilst the propertion of public order offences, which are the only offences you might regard as trivial (at least you might) are some way below the average across the strands.
So in light of this do you concede this rise in hate crimes has little to do with misgendering or tweeting, which would not be consisdered a hate crime anyway unless it was part of a wider campaign of harassment, and so your scepticism was unfounded. And more importantly when your contempories dismiss these figures will you correct them, because you say you're not transphobic so surely you wouldn't want this shocking rise in crime against trans people to be brushed off on the basis of inaccurate assumptions?
And honstly JudithB if trans people reported a crime every time we got abused in the street let alone misgendered we'd never be out of police stations. You really have no idea.
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No, I'm calling racists racist and some racists use concerns - which are honestly held but may or may not always be backed by evidence - about the impact of migration, to attempt to build a broader racist narrative.
I think it is very comparable to the current debate.
We can do your nonsense about the trans murder rate, and trans being the safest demographic tomorrow by the way, I can't be bothered now.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Don't you dare imply women concerned about safeguarding are racists. We are no such thing.
However if I'd made a slip up calling all working class people racists like you did I would have been thrown to lions and you know it.
At the end of the day will you, now you've received as much capitulation from women that you can, accept that females are worried about Self ID. It isn't turning out great in Canada. And it's not trans women that women are scared of. It's chancers. It's not today, next month, next year. Actually it probably is next year. Do you not see what safe guarding issues this opens up?
Do you care?
Unfortunately I have yet to meet any one on what would be the other side to gender critical who actually cares about what women sorry females are trying to say.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Sides
You're going to have to do better than this. Perhaps read back what I posted. And I didn;t compare women who have concerns about safeguarding to racists, I compared transphobes to racists.
Toilets, changing rooms etc have been self ID for years, as have many women's refuges, all over the world. I'm not aware of any clear case of a man self ID-ing as a woman with the intention of abusing women, although there is one case in Canada where that may have happened, although there seems to be confusion about the sincerity or otherwise of the perpetrators gender identity.
So it's not that I don't care, and its not even that I think there are no issues, I've said before I'm not opposed to keeping the proportionate and legitimate exemption as it seems the women's sector is managing this situation quite well. But I'm sorry I just don;t find the idea very plausible that a man would change his legal sex to female and pretend to be not just a woman but a victim of domestic violence in order to enter possibly the most surveillanced zone he could like a refuge to abuse women. The women's sector in the US laughed at the religious right when they tried this line, I find it quite astonishing it has gained such ground here, although Ive got to say most of the women I have spoken to about it find it pretty preposterous as well. The most common line I've heard, which I agree with from my own experience, is that unfortunately abusive men do not need to go to all that trouble.
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Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
It's telling you're still thinking in terms of sides.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Define transphobes to me smokedout because honestly it seems any woman (female) who raises any questions is now a transphobe. You know that and I'd hoped you'd not be so silly as to choose the easy route of saying this. It really is lazy.
What is the proportionate and legitimate exemption? Chop off the bits that cause males to abuse females? This should be down to you to work out. If al a man has to do is fill out something online (you can do it in Yorkshire now) it will be done. The PROBLEM is women and ESPECIALLY YOUNG GIRLS will not be able to challenge any male who says they can be in female spaces. Show some brains and compassion.
You know as I am sure you have educated yourself that trans rights came before gay rights.
You know that. You know the legal fiction that men could become women came law to ensure men could not marry eachother. The law allowed trans women to declare themselves women so they could marry other male bodied people. And how many years later did gay marriage become law? Nobody mentions this do they? Trans women had rights before gay men had rights.
What is the proportionate and legitimate exemption? Chop off the bits that cause males to abuse females? This should be down to you to work out. If al a man has to do is fill out something online (you can do it in Yorkshire now) it will be done. The PROBLEM is women and ESPECIALLY YOUNG GIRLS will not be able to challenge any male who says they can be in female spaces. Show some brains and compassion.
You know as I am sure you have educated yourself that trans rights came before gay rights.
You know that. You know the legal fiction that men could become women came law to ensure men could not marry eachother. The law allowed trans women to declare themselves women so they could marry other male bodied people. And how many years later did gay marriage become law? Nobody mentions this do they? Trans women had rights before gay men had rights.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Yeah and my side has given up the word woman. That's pretty huge mate. What are the other side willing to give?
ETA I didnt define the binary. S(sunshine)I did. I dont believe in binaries unless we are talking about sex characteristics. Be as many gender personalities as you want. Just don't make this an excuse to ignore females are oppressed (often killed before birth, always victims of fgm, always the child brides, only the ones discriminated against because they have babies, the ones who carry out most of the unpaid labour, the ones now losing out on retirement payments), because if you cared for all women you would actually fucking care for those who are designed to give birth.
Oh and dont try and bring those suffering from DSDs (you call them intersex) into this as they do not want to be weaponised.
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I'm sure you know that the law permits discrimination on the basis of gender identity if it is proportionate and legitimate and there are no plans to change that even in Self ID is introduced. And if you didnlt know that you should probably do some reading before entering into this debate.
And who says they won;t be able to challenge them even if it happens. Do you honestly believe self ID will be introduced and suddenly women's toilets will be full of men trying to assault people, and if anyone challenges them they will just be able to say they are women and society will be completely powerless to prevent this bizarre new world. I'm sorry, I really am, but I think it's batshit.
How about instead of bombarding me with new points we stick to the points under discussion. You could try answering this for example:
JudithB
Well-Known Member
OK it's already happening. And why is it down to women and young girls to be the challengers. We are weaker than men. Why can you not for once say OK maybe women the weaker and oppressed sex should be protected?
Why wont you say that?
We gave you our name.
Why wont you give us something by trying to understand that as a woman it is very hard to confront a man who has already violated the space you are in. When I started working in town, the free mags used to tell me to push the emergency button if a man abused me. I had men grab me by the pussy on so many absolutely packed tubes into the City. Do you think I ever had the opportunity or guts to push that button? We are literally telling girls now if they suspect the wrong person is in their toilet to get over it. See Bristol Uni for an example.
And to answer your question which deftly ignored how trans rights have come before gay rights.
No
I know of too many examples of people getting calls from the police for retweeting or misgendering someone. Transgender Watch make sure all these so called crimes are recorded by the police.
nyxx
*
[QUOTE="JudithB, post: 16104093, member: 77881”]
In my lifetime this is the first time I have come across something that we are not allowed to talk about.[/QUOTE]
unfeasible assertion to make given the lengths of these threads, not to mention other fora, or the numerous articles in every layer of news media.
also that assertion implies no ones ever tried to shut down feminist debate before. where can you have been living. what sort of a feminist could possibly have managed decades of campaigning on women’s issues and never had anyone try to shut them up. sounds like bad hyperbole.
meanwhile...
9 pages in & hardly any discussion of where this surge in hate crime has come from. strange that. other than splitting hairs over whether the stats are legit. making out like it’s a non issue.
remind me again what issue is being shut down....
In my lifetime this is the first time I have come across something that we are not allowed to talk about.[/QUOTE]
unfeasible assertion to make given the lengths of these threads, not to mention other fora, or the numerous articles in every layer of news media.
also that assertion implies no ones ever tried to shut down feminist debate before. where can you have been living. what sort of a feminist could possibly have managed decades of campaigning on women’s issues and never had anyone try to shut them up. sounds like bad hyperbole.
meanwhile...
9 pages in & hardly any discussion of where this surge in hate crime has come from. strange that. other than splitting hairs over whether the stats are legit. making out like it’s a non issue.
remind me again what issue is being shut down....
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nyxx
*
there’s umpteen threads for discussing feminism, why do you need to rant on about it here.
OP is about a surge in hate crime against trans people.
take it elsewhere.
massive disrespect to every murdered, mutilated, abused trans person to clog up this thread with this epic and relentless derail.
edited to add: natal female with no known chromosomal divergence speaking, before you start.
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I'm not really sure I'm that motivated to carry on if your hunches override the evidence. It's a bit like arguing with an evangelicist or something, at some point you realise its futile and they dont really have any interest in things like evidence.
So I'll stop for now, Im going to bed anyway, night.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
And from my side it's like arguing with someone who wants to ignore any points made about females and just blah blah blah about themselves. We've seen it all before.
For the record I am shocked and upset that the figures for trans people experiencing violence without physical harm are the greatest out of the stats from the home office.
Nobody should ignore how violence might be felt as an attack even if a blow is not given. Tonight I walked up two residential streets to the main road to get ciggies and a couple more beers out of usual hours. I was ignored by the teller until a man confirmed yes they are open 24 hours and he finally decided to come to the little window. The guy who'd helped me was with someone on a bike and on my way home I was very aware I probably shouldn't take the short cut not of these guys, but when someone cycled up to me very fast on the pavement, on the long route, I couldn't help thinking they know I am on my own. Different guy. All totally innocent.
I am female. I cannot identify out of this.
Yet when it comes to gender politics nobody ever asks women what it's like for them and why there may be concerns about self-ID
And ETA nobody did ask women during the consultation. People should know this
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Yep I was one of the only ones discussing the actual issue. Look at the digressions sweetheart, not started by me. And you are only not helping.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
What threads? There was one entitled Terfs...something something...bigots
OK tomorrow start a thread asking if women's rights might just a little bit be compromised by the wanted rights of trans women.
Or if that's too simple, how about start a thread asking if the untested medicalisation of children might need a little bit of interrogation
Or if that's too controversial perhaps link to the whistle blowers from the leading GIRES clinic and pop it out there that it should perhaps be looked into because it's about children even though it's the Times reporting it, there do seem to be a lot of whistleblowers and most of the trustees of the main children's charity have quit
Or you could always go for is it fair for trans girls to be competing against natal girls and taking their prizes possibly scholarships having declared themselves girls and apparently that's all that matters
We don't talk about it, perhaps it's time we should? If someone shouts transphobe or similar then you'll know we are talking about subjects that we cannot. Good luck
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ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
Well thats a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier, is there a reason that this is all about judithb now
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I won't derail the thread any further but I was explaining to you historical, biological and linguistic reasons as an answer to one of your points. Your reply smacks of infantilism and selfishness. As pointed out, you seem to unable to grasp what transgender is and applies to, settling instead for a 'me, me, me' approach to debate, any debate.
Fucking grow up.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
It's a deliberate (& successful) attempt to derail the thread.
That much was obvious four pages back:
Maybe don't engage?
This is so incredibly disingenuous it cannot go without comment. The reason the absolute number of transgender hate crimes is low is that it is an extremely small group. The probability of experiencing a hate crime in that group is very large.
You obviously know this. Everyone reading this post can tell why you pretend you don't.
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