Tram overturns in Croydon - several deaths reported [Nov 2016]

[Dan U]

I cannot bring myself to quote the source for this!
"Croydon tram crash ‘almost happened a week earlier when vehicle “lifted onto one side” at same corner’"

Lets not forget that that this terrible incident has ruined the lives of dozens if not hundreds of people, even the tram drivers family.

Plenty of sources reported that yesterday too so don't worry about the source too much !

Seems the media are actually waking up to this general story post Trump.

 

[Dan U]

Spoke to someone yesterday who was involved in the post crash situation .

Said it was just horrendous and it took some families most of the day to get confirmation their loved ones had sadly died.

 

[Lucy Fur]

first hand account, sounds absolutely nightmarish. Thoughts to anyone involved. (some fairly graphic pictures at end)
Survivor describes heartbreaking scenes on board derailed tram

 

[teuchter]

Autonomous vehicles are risk averse and you can quite easily bully them into submission. They can assert themselves to avoid that but it results in accidents and it's not a brilliant idea to fight back against pedestrians with a 40t tram. So they'd probably end up regularly stuck in crowded non-linear, non-segregated environments.

These are all issues but I don't see why they would be more so with a tram than a car.

 

[mauvais]

These are all issues but I don't see why they would be more so with a tram than a car.

They're not more so. But AFAIK we haven't yet got cars that can autonomously negotiate heavily pedestrianised areas - at least, not in a way that performs better than a human.

 

[SpookyFrank]

They're not more so. But AFAIK we haven't yet got cars that can autonomously negotiate heavily pedestrianised areas - at least, not in a way that performs better than a human.

Cars aren't supposed to negotiate pedestrianised areas.

 

[mauvais]

Cars aren't supposed to negotiate pedestrianised areas.

Pedestrianised doesn't always mean no vehicles at all. 'Shared space' is probably a better term for what I'm on about though.

 

[D'wards]

Autonomous vehicles are risk averse and you can quite easily bully them into submission. They can assert themselves to avoid that but it results in accidents and it's not a brilliant idea to fight back against pedestrians with a 40t tram. So they'd probably end up regularly stuck in crowded non-linear, non-segregated environments.

Tram drivers (I travel on one regularly) are good at the balancing act of warning people in advance, making progress and not actually hitting anyone.

Automated oversight might be a good compromise but then you're into the realms of the dangerous mixed mode automation as seen in automotive and aviation. A mostly redundant driver is a totally useless driver.

A guy was killed in an Autonomous car because it could differentiate between the white side panel of a lorry and clear sky, and turned under the wheels. Still lots of work needed.
At the risk of bringing levity into a very sad and serious thread, they train the self-driving cars now by making them play GTA V, as it teaches them spacial awareness.

 

[mauvais]

A guy was killed in an Autonomous car because it could differentiate between the white side panel of a lorry and clear sky, and turned under the wheels. Still lots of work needed.

Yeah, I know, the Tesla accident - but that's an example of a problem that in theory has an existing solution and thus can be solved by better sensors, tweaked parameters, etcetera, whereas making a tram or car negotiate a crowd in a timely fashion is a problem we still don't seem to have solved at all.

 

[alex_]

A guy was killed in an Autonomous car because it could differentiate between the white side panel of a lorry and clear sky, and turned under the wheels. Still lots of work needed.
At the risk of bringing levity into a very sad and serious thread, they train the self-driving cars now by making them play GTA V, as it teaches them spacial awareness.

It wasn't an autonomous car, it was a tesla - the guy was watching a fucking video - Dick.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

It wasn't an autonomous car, it was a tesla - the guy was watching a fucking video - Dick.

The Tesla was supposed to be autonomous, alex_/Dick, so why shouldn't the guy watch a fucking video?

 

[mauvais]

It wasn't fully autonomous but it was self driving at the time. He was supposed to be supervising it at all times, which is a crock of shit.

 

[T & P]

In the Madrid Metro at least some lines are automated. Not only that but the door to the driver's cabin has a window and you can look in. On a visit a few years ago I was initially shocked to see the driver spent much of his time playing/ messaging on his phone, only putting it down and paying attention when the train approached or was inside stations. Later it dawned on me the portion of the journey inside tunnels was run by computers and the driver was only needed for station operations.

But then if it's worked fully driverless on the DLR for decades it should not be that surprising I guess.

 

[alex_]

The Tesla was supposed to be autonomous, alex_/Dick, so why shouldn't the guy watch a fucking video?

Hey I didn't mean you were a dick !

 

[Maggot]

In the Madrid Metro at least some lines are automated. Not only that but the door to the driver's cabin has a window and you can look in. On a visit a few years ago I was initially shocked to see the driver spent much of his time playing/ messaging on his phone, only putting it down and paying attention when the train approached or was inside stations. Later it dawned on me the portion of the journey inside tunnels was run by computers and the driver was only needed for station operations.

But then if it's worked fully driverless on the DLR for decades it should not be that surprising I guess.

The DLR doesn't go along roads, across roads, through busy pedestrian areas etc etc.

 

[spliff]

Informed speculation time:

I work in Croydon and one of my colleagues was on the tram before the one which over-turned.

The trams go through a long tunnel and pick up speed before slowing down to take a sharp bend just before Sandilands stop. My colleague said that his tram was skidding (probably on wet leaves) before taking the sharp bend. So I think it's likely that the following tram also skidded on the leaves, which meant it didn't slow down enough before the bend and overturned.

Your colleague should make himself known to the investigating team because at the moment it seems they're going for driver carelessness or suchlike.

 

[Maggot]

Your colleague should make himself known to the investigating team because at the moment it seems they're going for driver carelessness or suchlike.

I mentioned it to him and he wasn't interested. Maybe I should tell them myself.


The trams have just started running again.

 

[hash tag]

The news today shows a driver falling asleep at the controls ( not the driver involved in the crash) a few months ago. Why on earth did they not do something at the time?

 

[19sixtysix]

The news today shows a driver falling asleep at the controls ( not the driver involved in the crash) a few months ago. Why on earth did they not do something at the time?

Exactly. I doubt it's that uncommon to have drivers dosing off. I find it hard to stay awake at work somedays. I've had to report a driver I found asleep as I came down to get off the bus. I only noticed as we started to straight on instead of round the bend. I had to bang on the glass shouting wake up followed by a lurch back into lane.

 

[existentialist]

The news today shows a driver falling asleep at the controls ( not the driver involved in the crash) a few months ago. Why on earth did they not do something at the time?

Probably because nobody knew. I am assuming that the recording in question only surfaced subsequently to this crash?

It does potentially invite broader questions - is there, for example, some aspect of the way the services is rostered that increases the risk of drivers being tired on duty, or is it a culture amongst drivers of failing to be careful enough about their lifestyle to ensure that they're rested and refreshed when they come on shift?

 

[hash tag]

i imagine the drivers are pushed hard and encouraged to work extra shifts and overtime. I also imagine their pay to be very low, especially compared to that of a train driver or tube train driver and guess some of them have other jobs?

 

[existentialist]

i imagine the drivers are pushed hard and encouraged to work extra shifts and overtime. I also imagine their pay to be very low, especially compared to that of a train driver or tube train driver and guess some of them have other jobs?

I was being quite carefully non-specific, but yes - those were exactly the kind of things I was thinking of.

If ever we needed an argument against this tendency to move towards "light touch" regulation and control, it's the string of situations where things have gone wrong because rules weren't strict enough, or enforced properly. And all too often, it ends up being the person at the end of the line who carries the can alone, even if their actions were in the context of a flawed system, so nothing fundamentally changes.

Of course, all this is speculation given that we don't know yet whether tiredness played a part in this disaster, nor what First's employment policies and procedures are. But it is something that I hope will be examined very carefully.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

It does potentially invite broader questions - is there, for example, some aspect of the way the services is rostered that increases the risk of drivers being tired on duty, or is it a culture amongst drivers of failing to be careful enough about their lifestyle to ensure that they're rested and refreshed when they come on shift?

Many driving jobs require starts at all sorts of times of the day. Supermarket delivery drivers for example can be required to start any time from 2am onwards. If a driving job requires irregular shift patterns then falling asleep at the wheel is going to happen occasionally. It's ok to put the responsibility on drivers saying they should get sufficient rest & so on but people have families & kids & so on so it's difficult to go to bed & sleep at 6pm to get up for a 2am start.

Those of us who know a bit about these things understand why these things happen. For example Parcel Force trunk driver killed in 4am accident on M5, no other vehicle involved. Probably agency driver, phoned up at 5pm to be told to start work at 8pm. Coach full of school kids crashes off motorway in France at 3am in good weather. Coach has 2 drivers driving kids back from skiing trip in North Italy non stop to UK overnight. 2 drivers can legally work a 22hr shift. Yes of course tired driver can sleep a few hours in a moving coach & wake up refreshed.

When it all goes wrong everything is piled on the driver, nasty irresponsible driver killing people, lock the cunt up etc. Nothing will change. It can't. Those sitting in comfort & blameless at the top will not allow the loss of revenue it would cause.

 

[WouldBe]

Coach full of school kids crashes off motorway in France at 3am in good weather. Coach has 2 drivers driving kids back from skiing trip in North Italy non stop to UK overnight. 2 drivers can legally work a 22hr shift. Yes of course tired driver can sleep a few hours in a moving coach & wake up refreshed.

Years ago I was on a coach back from a skiing trip in Austria. We had 2 drivers on board who actually swapped over while doing 70mph on the motorway.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Years ago I was on a coach back from a skiing trip in Austria. We had 2 drivers on board who actually swapped over while doing 70mph on the motorway.

Probably safer than stopping to do so in the fast lane.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Many years ago people with jobs with irregular shift patterns covering 7 days often had really good union negotiated deals. The recompense for working nights/weekends was very generous periods of time off. I recall 30odd yrs ago a neighbour who worked on the Harwich/Hook of Holland ferry then run by British Rail owned Sealink boasting he only worked 6 months of the year. As union power has been smashed all these good working conditions have gone.

 

[Sirena]

Would shift patterns make a bus driver drive his bus at 100mph through London streets?

Because that's the equivalent with this tram driver trying to take the bend at 3 times the permitted speed.

 

[existentialist]

Would shift patterns make a bus driver drive his bus at 100mph through London streets?

Because that's the equivalent with this tram driver trying to take the bend at 3 times the permitted speed.

The shift patterns thing comes up in connection with the story about a driver nodding off, and the possibility that the driver of the crashed tram may have done so. We don't know that the driver was "trying" to take the bend at that speed, and it seems unlikely. Far more likely was that he failed to slow down for some reason which we don't yet know.

 

[Sirena]

The shift patterns thing comes up in connection with the story about a driver nodding off, and the possibility that the driver of the crashed tram may have done so. We don't know that the driver was "trying" to take the bend at that speed, and it seems unlikely. Far more likely was that he failed to slow down for some reason which we don't yet know.

Why does it seem unlikely? To me, it seems the most likely scenario, especially in the light of other, previous, reports of drivers taking that bend at crazy speeds.

Are they all dropping off?

 

[existentialist]

Why does it seem unlikely? To me, it seems the most likely scenario, especially in the light of other, previous, reports of drivers taking that bend at crazy speeds.

Are they all dropping off?

Well, if in the fullness of time it is revealed that there is some kind of racing culture, then obviously any theories about shift patterns become irrelevant.

Meanwhile, and whatever the cause of this crash turns out to be, we now learn that there may be an issue with drivers nodding off. Whether or not that's relevant to this one, it's obviously an issue of some concern.