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Tram overturns in Croydon - several deaths reported [Nov 2016]

hash tag said:
There is footage just released of a Croydon tram driver falling asleep at the controls. The assumption is, it is recent. The tram is not moving at the time, but it doesn't look good.
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Yeah, I saw it on facebook. It is the Evening Standard, unfortunately. The driver involved has been suspended.

It is frightening, and I guess it is what happens when a job becomes so automated that there is very little left for the operator/driver to do, most of the time. In the case of trams, though, the resultant lack of attention/awakedness can, and did, have fatal consequences. :(
 
On this occasion the tram is not moving.

There was a video a while back of a driver nodding off whilst the tram was in motion. Someone obviously decided it was more important to film it than to bang on the window to wake him up.

In my opinion if it's possible for the tram to be in motion when the driver is asleep then there's something wrong with the design of the control system.

Also let's not forget that people are routinely killed on the roads by drivers falling asleep.
 
hash tag said:
I suspect that the drivers are being encouraged to work extra hours to boost their otherwise very poor pay. Either that, or they are moonlighting to boost their pay.
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And pattern of shifts...apparently...

"Nobody is ever fully awake, I was always feeling in a bit of a daze, and that is because the way the shifts work doesn't allow the drivers to get a regular sleep pattern.

"When I was a driver we worked seven days on the trot and then got four days off. We'd then work seven days again before getting two days off and then work two days for one day off. It was crazy.

"During all this you could have a week of early starts, at say 3.45am, and then a week of late shifts finishing at 2am. When I was a driver the longest shift was nine hours and the shortest six hours.

"You could never get into a routine of proper sleep.

"At the Therapia Lane tram depot there were three vending machines and the only drink available in one of them was Red Bull - that tells you everything you need to know.




Read more at Former tram driver criticises 'crazy' working conditions
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I fully appreciate that there is yet to be a full inquest and no blame has been apportioned, yet you would think that the tram operators would have been very careful to avoid such incidents ever happening again. It might be that the driver in this latest "incident" was intoxicated, had taken drugs, illicit or otherwise or he is I'll.
I am routinely and regularly given premeds these days, part of which is an antihistamine. They tell me not to work or drive afterwards, but so far I've been fine.
 
They may be working long shifts but I don't think it requires any extreme conditions for someone to become drowsy. I'm sure many people reading this have experienced the feeling of nodding off at their desk after lunch on a slow day. Also, the effect of sitting in a vehicle rumbling along at a moderate speed. If there's not a lot for the driver to do, then I don't think it requires negligence or unusual working conditions for them to doze off. So, the control system should be designed to (a) try and stop that happening in the first place and (b) bring the tram to a halt if there's not been a positive response from the driver for more than a short period of time. It's certainly a problem that arises with increasing automation. I'm sure this issue is quite successfully moderated when the driver also has the job of checking fares and issuing tickets at each stop.
 
I saw it mentioned somewhere that the Underground's new S Stock was - at union request - designed such that the driver can drive the train sitting or standing. The drivers felt that being able to stand now and again reduced the monotony of the job and helped them stay focused.
 
teuchter said:
They may be working long shifts but I don't think it requires any extreme conditions for someone to become drowsy. I'm sure many people reading this have experienced the feeling of nodding off at their desk after lunch on a slow day. Also, the effect of sitting in a vehicle rumbling along at a moderate speed. If there's not a lot for the driver to do, then I don't think it requires negligence or unusual working conditions for them to doze off. So, the control system should be designed to (a) try and stop that happening in the first place and (b) bring the tram to a halt if there's not been a positive response from the driver for more than a short period of time. It's certainly a problem that arises with increasing automation. I'm sure this issue is quite successfully moderated when the driver also has the job of checking fares and issuing tickets at each stop.
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I agree about all the technology that should be used to prevent drowsiness, but (as Brogdale's post #184 above suggests) the effect that a badly designed shift system can have on people cannot really be overestimated - and its not long shifts that are the problem, so much as what shift pattern is used and whether or not there is an appropriate amount of rest afterwards.
 
Chz said:
I saw it mentioned somewhere that the Underground's new S Stock was - at union request - designed such that the driver can drive the train sitting or standing. The drivers felt that being able to stand now and again reduced the monotony of the job and helped them stay focused.
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I'm jealous of short arses who can stand and drive 73 stock. I'm too tall so can't see ahead properly if I stand.

Being able to switch between standing and sitting is a very useful tool I'm denied.
 
Gromit said:
I'm jealous of short arses who can stand and drive 73 stock. I'm too tall so can't see ahead properly if I stand.

Being able to switch between standing and sitting is a very useful tool I'm denied.
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Yeah, I can't imagine that'll be a feature of deep tube stock unless they stop hiring people over 5'7".
 
Chz said:
Yeah, I can't imagine that'll be a feature of deep tube stock unless they stop hiring people over 5'7".
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I have seen northern line drivers standing in the middle of the cab (northern line is now automatic train operation in normal running)

not sure that's a great idea, as it means the driver (or train operator or whatever the heck they are called this week) will be further away from the emergency stop controls if they see an obstruction on the track when they are running in to a station...
 
Puddy_Tat said:
I have seen northern line drivers standing in the middle of the cab (northern line is now automatic train operation in normal running)

not sure that's a great idea, as it means the driver (or train operator or whatever the heck they are called this week) will be further away from the emergency stop controls if they see an obstruction on the track when they are running in to a station...
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There's an emergency stop on the wall to their right as well as the one on the console.
That one is easily reached from the centre of the cab.
 
GarveyLives said:
The Rail Accident Investigation Branch has released its second interim report into the fatal accident involving a tram near Sandilands Junction, Croydon on 9 November 2016.

The report contains material which appeared in their first interim report, published on 16 November 2016, as well as some new information which they are now able to release.

New information in paragraph 9 updates the number of people they believe were on the tram. Paragraph 28 sets out the investigation activities that have taken place so far. Paragraphs 30 to 34 describe the infrastructure in the area, including the speed restriction sign on the approach to the tight curve where the derailment occurred. Paragraphs 36 and 37 describe how the tram was driven immediately before the accident. Paragraphs 38 and 39 describe the initial findings of the RAIB’s examination of the tram, including the damage to the vehicle and the locations of the fatal casualties ...

Rail Accident Investigation Branch: Second interim report following a fatal accident involving a tram near Sandilands Junction, Croydon, 9 November 2016
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Croydon Tram drivers to strike over 'sleep detectors'

Tram driver strike on Monday is suspended after tram company agrees 'independent review' of safety device

tram-crash-e1479215087594.jpg


9 November 2016: Lest We Forget​
 
"Investigators have said they believe the Croydon tram crash was caused by the driver briefly falling asleep before speeding through a sharp bend, but tram operators had failed to properly understand the risks and put enough safety measures in place ...

... the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) said drivers had been reluctant to report incidents or near misses to managers at FirstGroup’s Tram Operations Ltd, fearing disciplinary measures.

Another speeding tram had come close to overturning on the same junction nine days before, inspectors said ..."

Croydon tram crash 'caused by driver falling asleep and speeding'

_99103406_036310429.jpg


stream_img.jpg


The passengers who died in the crash were Dane Chinnery, 19; Philip Seary, 57; Dorota Rynkiewicz, 35; Philip Logan, 52; and Robert Huxley, 63, all from New Addington; and Mark Smith, 35, and Donald Collett, 62, from Croydon.​
 
This year I have been working with someone who was on that tram. He had to move out of Croydon because he can't face being there, the memories. He lost an arm, ripped off when it went on its side and the window smashed. It grated along the ground. So horrible.
 
GarveyLives said:
This is very disturbing and distressing news for those who were involved in, or impacted by, this incident:

Driver of crashed tram ‘too unwell’ to give evidence at inquest

It is not even clear whether or not the individual concerned is still driving trams.
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Nearly five and a half years later, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) is prosecuting Transport for London, Tram Operations Limited and tram driver Alfred Dorris following a detailed and thorough investigation into the fatal Sandilands tram derailment in November 2016:

The Office of Rail and Road launches prosecution over Sandilands tram crash
 
GarveyLives said:
Nearly five and a half years later, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) is prosecuting Transport for London, Tram Operations Limited and tram driver Alfred Dorris following a detailed and thorough investigation into the fatal Sandilands tram derailment in November 2016:

The Office of Rail and Road launches prosecution over Sandilands tram crash
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The trial of the driver of the ill-fated tram is now under way six and a half years after the fatal crash:

Tram driver slept just four hours the night before fatal crash, court hears
 
editor said:
Driver found not guilty of failing to take “reasonable care”.

londonnewsonline.co.uk

Croydon tram crash driver cleared over derailment that killed seven people

The court heard how the tram was going three times the speed it was supposed to
londonnewsonline.co.uk londonnewsonline.co.uk
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Life in limbo for nearly 7 years.

I really want to comment further about fatigue, concentration levels, hours worked, upcoming TFL proposed changes to driver's terms and conditions that (potentially) impact the above...

... but not on social media I won't.
 
Last edited:
pbsmooth said:
I don't get why he was 3x the speed limit. fell asleep on the accelerator?
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His defence was that he thought he was traveling in the opposite direction where the speed limit is much higher as it's a straight run. (You get large speed reductions ahead of big curves).

More info here (in layman's terms):

www.bbc.co.uk

Croydon tram crash - the unanswered questions

Six years after seven people died in the crash, there are still questions about fatigue and safety.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
doesn't mention your specific detail in that article but assume you have read it elsewhere.
does seem a strange one. feel for the guy but hard to see how he isn't at fault. in a lorry or car and he's screwed.
 
pbsmooth said:
doesn't mention your specific detail in that article but assume you have read it elsewhere.
does seem a strange one. feel for the guy but hard to see how he isn't at fault. in a lorry or car and he's screwed.
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IMG_1267.jpeg

I have indeed read the full RAIB report but no it is briefly mentioned in the article, See above.

RAIB report below:

 
Last edited:
pbsmooth said:
I meant the speed limits.
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I drive trains. So I know how line speeds, speed limits and temporary speed restrictions work.

In this instance the speed limit for the bend was 12mph. Possible to overturn at 30mph. He was doing 45mph.

I don't know the tram line's top speeds but the Picadilly line top speed used to be 45mph and the Northern line is 50mph.

ETA:The fact there is no mention of excessive speed before he passed the speed restriction leads me to believe 45mph is probably line speed.
 
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