Tram overturns in Croydon - several deaths reported [Nov 2016]

[agricola]

Would shift patterns make a bus driver drive his bus at 100mph through London streets?

Because that's the equivalent with this tram driver trying to take the bend at 3 times the permitted speed.

It would be the second bus right behind it that did all the damage.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Would shift patterns make a bus driver drive his bus at 100mph through London streets?

Because that's the equivalent with this tram driver trying to take the bend at 3 times the permitted speed.

no it's not. an equivalent would be a bus driver trying to take a sharp corner at 30 mph. croydon trams are allowed to do 45 mph - on straight sections of clear track. the 12 mph limit applies to this tight bend. for reasons as yet not clear, this particular tram did not slow down for the bend.

in terms of the drivers' hours thing, i'm fairly sure there will be something in place restricting the overall working day / week of drivers, and a minimum break between one day's duty and the next. i'm a bit fuzzy as to whether these have force of law for tram drivers (it is a matter of law for bus drivers, and most bus companies have a collective agreement that's better than legal minimum)

what nobody can legislate on is exactly what any worker does with their time between one day's work and the next - different people need differing amounts of sleep, some people deal with early shift by going to bed early evening, some people deal with it by having an afternoon sleep as well. And then there's the unknowns like noisy neighbours / babies and the like.

 

[Sirena]

no it's not. an equivalent would be a bus driver trying to take a sharp corner at 30 mph. croydon trams are allowed to do 45 mph - on straight sections of clear track. the 12 mph limit applies to this tight bend. for reasons as yet not clear, this particular tram did not slow down for the bend.

in terms of the drivers' hours thing, i'm fairly sure there will be something in place restricting the overall working day / week of drivers, and a minimum break between one day's duty and the next. i'm a bit fuzzy as to whether these have force of law for tram drivers (it is a matter of law for bus drivers, and most bus companies have a collective agreement that's better than legal minimum)

what nobody can legislate on is exactly what any worker does with their time between one day's work and the next - different people need differing amounts of sleep, some people deal with early shift by going to bed early evening, some people deal with it by having an afternoon sleep as well. And then there's the unknowns like noisy neighbours / babies and the like.

Noisy neighbours?

Occam's Razor suggests it's more like jack-the-lad drivers.

 

[existentialist]

Noisy neighbours?

Occam's Razor suggests it's more like jack-the-lad drivers.

Are Occam's Razors any good at slicing beef?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Noisy neighbours?

Occam's Razor suggests it's more like jack-the-lad drivers.

noisy neighbours making a racket if you're trying to get to kip mid evening before an early shift.

i'm inclined to wait for a proper investigation here rather than jump to conclusions, thanks

 

[Sirena]

noisy neighbours making a racket if you're trying to get to kip mid evening before an early shift.

i'm inclined to wait for a proper investigation here rather than jump to conclusions, thanks

Yes, but we ave already had the accident investigation which found no fault with the track and no fault with the brakes.

 

[existentialist]

Yes, but we ave already had the accident investigation which found no fault with the track and no fault with the brakes.

No, we haven't. That was a preliminary report. The investigation itself will take a long time, because it will be painstaking and detailed. All they've done is to provide an outline of the main things they have been able to rule out.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yes, but we ave already had the accident investigation which found no fault with the track and no fault with the brakes.

And how does the state of the track impact on whether the driver was tired or not?

Does it not seem prudent to say "we do not know all the circumstances yet, and there are various things that could have contributed to this, and it would be wise not assume it's 'bound to be x and not y' at this stage"?

Maybe you're right. Maybe the driver was a consummate dickhead who likes to get his jollies by putting himself and others at risk. All this stuff about occam's razor is bullshit though, considering what we know about the number of people who fall asleep at the wheel. It seems as if you're also saying that working conditions and the way work influences people's health in various ways is all bullshit and you don't give a shit and whatever lol it's not a problem just this bloke being a wanker. What an odd thing for you to imply.

 

[Sirena]

And how does the state of the track impact on whether the driver was tired or not?

Does it not seem prudent to say "we do not know all the circumstances yet, and there are various things that could have contributed to this, and it would be wise not assume it's 'bound to be x and not y' at this stage"?

Maybe you're right. Maybe the driver was a consummate dickhead who likes to get his jollies by putting himself and others at risk. All this stuff about occam's razor is bullshit though, considering what we know about the number of people who fall asleep at the wheel. It seems as if you're also saying that working conditions and the way work influences people's health in various ways is all bullshit and you don't give a shit and whatever lol it's not a problem just this bloke being a wanker. What an odd thing for you to imply.

It's not odd at all. It simply says let's not microanalyse and throw in speculative possiblities without any supporting data.

Perhaps the captain of the Costa Concordia was feeling below par and hungover, perhaps he had had a row with his girlfriend, perhaps he had noisy neigbours in the cabin next door. I don't care. He killed people who were under his protection because he took his ship off course into dangerous waters for no reason other than to show off.

The train driver of the Croydon tram that killed 7 people was driving a functional tram packed with failsafe features. He had total responsibility for the souls onboard.

 

[bi0boy]

Airline pilots are required to call in sick if they didn't sleep well due to noisy hotels etc.. I wonder what tube drivers do in such circumstances?

 

[teuchter]

It's not odd at all. It simply says let's not microanalyse and throw in speculative possiblities without any supporting data.

Perhaps the captain of the Costa Concordia was feeling below par and hungover, perhaps he had had a row with his girlfriend, perhaps he had noisy neigbours in the cabin next door. I don't care. He killed people who were under his protection because he took his ship off course into dangerous waters for no reason other than to show off.

The train driver of the Croydon tram that killed 7 people was driving a functional tram packed with failsafe features. He had total responsibility for the souls onboard.

Packed with failsafe features?

 

[existentialist]

It's not odd at all. It simply says let's not microanalyse and throw in speculative possiblities without any supporting data.

Perhaps the captain of the Costa Concordia was feeling below par and hungover, perhaps he had had a row with his girlfriend, perhaps he had noisy neigbours in the cabin next door. I don't care. He killed people who were under his protection because he took his ship off course into dangerous waters for no reason other than to show off.

The train driver of the Croydon tram that killed 7 people was driving a functional tram packed with failsafe features. He had total responsibility for the souls onboard.

No, you don't need to care, because you are (as the rest of us are) a person speculating about it on the Internet. You are free to run riot with outrage, desire for retribution, and so on.

But, in the context of a proper enquiry into what went wrong, that's a luxury they cannot afford. If a structural aspect of these drivers' work lives turns out to have a bearing on their fitness to work, then before anyone starts getting into a frenzy of fingerpointing, that needs to be identified, and likely causes considered. So that - and maybe this is the crucial distinction - the system can be made safer and better so as to avoid more deaths and injuries, no matter who might be responsible.

But you're (hopefully, given how quickly you appear to have leaped to conclusions) not involved in the investigation, so are absolutely free to froth away to your heart's content. Fill yer boots

 

[existentialist]

Airline pilots are required to call in sick if they didn't sleep well due to noisy hotels etc.. I wonder what tube drivers do in such circumstances?

Interesting point. And what, I wonder, are the aspects of the corporate culture that prevails to either support, or undermine, that. I've worked in places where there was definitely a policy that certain things should be done, but where anyone who actually did those things would find life fairly uncomfortable pretty quickly. So you could have a policy that said "if you don't sleep well, call in sick" coupled with a nice Bradford Scale sickness policy which makes sure anyone doing that too often found themselves not getting any biscuits with their interview tea. The driver could still be blamed if they fell asleep ("we have a policy that they should not come in if they are tired"), but the practical reality could be that anyone who did follow the policy found themselves being hauled over the coals for being off sick too much. It's petty, low-level Kafkaesqueness, but exactly the kind of thing that goes on all the time, in all kinds of places.

 

[Sirena]

No, you don't need to care, because you are (as the rest of us are) a person speculating about it on the Internet. You are free to run riot with outrage, desire for retribution, and so on.

But, in the context of a proper enquiry into what went wrong, that's a luxury they cannot afford. If a structural aspect of these drivers' work lives turns out to have a bearing on their fitness to work, then before anyone starts getting into a frenzy of fingerpointing, that needs to be identified, and likely causes considered. So that - and maybe this is the crucial distinction - the system can be made safer and better so as to avoid more deaths and injuries, no matter who might be responsible.

But you're (hopefully, given how quickly you appear to have leaped to conclusions) not involved in the investigation, so are absolutely free to froth away to your heart's content. Fill yer boots

I'm not frothing. I was only offering a counter to the way this thread generally was trying, almost, to find the driver a victim.

People who transport others, as passengers, should be subject to the tightest of scrutiny and expectation. Airline pilots have it and I see no reason why other similar occupations do not. A mistake or a sloppy attitude can lead to carnage.

A friend of mine is a train driver and I know how seriously he takes this responsibility. He's a proper bohemian but his position on drink, drugs and how it may affect his job is absolute.

If the driver, in this instance, is cleared of blame and the fault found elsewhere, I will be content.

 

[existentialist]

I'm not frothing. I was only offering a counter to the way this thread generally was trying, almost, to find the driver a victim.

People who transport others, as passengers, should be subject to the tightest of scrutiny and expectation. Airline pilots have it and I see no reason why other similar occupations do not. A mistake or a sloppy attitude can lead to carnage.

A friend of mine is a train driver and I know how seriously he takes this responsibility. He's a proper bohemian but his position on drink, drugs and how it may affect his job is absolute.

If the driver, in this instance, is cleared of blame and the fault found elsewhere, I will be content.

Well, on the basis that our legal system tends to operate on the basis of "innocent until proven guilty", why not wait until he is shown to be blameworthy and then aim your disapproval at him, rather than speculatively assuming he must be at fault in the absence of any definitive evidence?

 

[Sirena]

Well, on the basis that our legal system tends to operate on the basis of "innocent until proven guilty", why not wait until he is shown to be blameworthy and then aim your disapproval at him, rather than speculatively assuming he must be at fault in the absence of any definitive evidence?

Maybe the fact that he was the only person at the controls when the tram reached the 12mph bend doing 40mph will have a bearing.

 

[existentialist]

Maybe the fact that he was the only person at the controls when the tram reached the 12mph bend doing 40mph will have a bearing.

I give up.

 

[brogdale]

I give up.

I'm no legal expert, but I'd imagine that the prosecution will not be totally chuffed that the Scum & Mail ran stories last week alleging that he was texting at the moment of the crash.

 

[alan_]

Maybe the fact that he was the only person at the controls when the tram reached the 12mph bend doing 40mph will have a bearing.

I hope you are never involved in a jury trial where I am a defendant

 

[hash tag]

I am loathe to speculate as you will see from my earlier posts, but, there has been speculation that the driver may have blacked out. I hope it wasn't his fault , but we really won't know for a while yet. I gather the trams were running at the weekend which would infer there were no issues with the track......time will tell...

 

[hash tag]

Incidentally, you are on a moving tram. You see the driver falling asleep, putting you, other passengers and other road users at risk. So, what do you do? Do you pull the emergency cord straight away or even wait for the next stop. Do you report it as soon as to the company? No, you film it than do nothing until a major incident happens and then pass it to a newspaper

 

[Dogsauce]

I am loathe to speculate as you will see from my earlier posts, but, there has been speculation that the driver may have blacked out. I hope it wasn't his fault , but we really won't know for a while yet. I gather the trams were running at the weekend which would infer there were no issues with the track......time will tell...

Thing is, the driver could have blacked out due to the impact of the crash, and then have no recollection of the events leading up to it which may make them think they blacked out or fell asleep earlier.

A couple of years ago I came off my bike just outside the office, out cold for about 15 mins, came round in an ambulance. At the time it was thought that I had just blacked out as the driver behind me said I just suddenly went down, and I had no recollection of what happened, all I could remember was up to a point a couple of hundred metres before. It seemed plausible, I had been a bit poorly at the time.

I was off work for two weeks with concussion. It was only when I was able to retrieve my bike from work a couple of weeks later that I was able to work out from the damage to the bike, my helmet and the position I'd ended up in that I'd been upended by a pothole. But I had believed the 'blackout' theory up to that point. Apparently it's normal if you've been knocked out to suffer some memory loss of the preceding events.

Not speculating that a similar case has happened here, but if the driver was unconscious after the crash they themselves could be convinced that they'd blacked out before the impact rather than as a result of it.

 

[teuchter]

Not speculating that a similar case has happened here, but if the driver was unconscious after the crash they themselves could be convinced that they'd blacked out before the impact rather than as a result of it.

You quite clearly are!

 

[existentialist]

I hope you are never involved in a jury trial where I am a defendant

Having been on a jury, I have to say that this attitude is far from rare. I am dismayed at the number of people who seem to genuinely believe that their firmly held view trumps (argh) actual evidence.

 

[Maggot]

All this talk of the driver blacking out doesn't take into account the traction/brake controller. If the driver's hand leave the controller for 3 seconds then the emergency brakes are applied.

 

[Chz]

Although it's unlikely, it's entirely possible to fall asleep gripping the dead man's handle in such a way that it doesn't notice you've nodded off. I'm not sure how they work on those trams - the old style where you just applied a downwards pressure is ancient history because it was too easy to keep the pressure on whilst unconscious. They're usually grip or twist now, but that doesn't make it impossible to defeat.

 

[Maggot]

Today I saw the funeral procession of Dane Chinnery, the victim who was only 19. There was a lot of people. And lots of Red and blue flowers.

 

[GarveyLives]

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch has released its second interim report into the fatal accident involving a tram near Sandilands Junction, Croydon on 9 November 2016.

The report contains material which appeared in their first interim report, published on 16 November 2016, as well as some new information which they are now able to release.

New information in paragraph 9 updates the number of people they believe were on the tram. Paragraph 28 sets out the investigation activities that have taken place so far. Paragraphs 30 to 34 describe the infrastructure in the area, including the speed restriction sign on the approach to the tight curve where the derailment occurred. Paragraphs 36 and 37 describe how the tram was driven immediately before the accident. Paragraphs 38 and 39 describe the initial findings of the RAIB’s examination of the tram, including the damage to the vehicle and the locations of the fatal casualties ...

Rail Accident Investigation Branch: Second interim report following a fatal accident involving a tram near Sandilands Junction, Croydon, 9 November 2016

 

[teuchter]

To try and provide a more useful summary of this interim report than the above post does:

It doesn't appear there was anything wrong with the tram, its brakes or the track.

The data recorder confirmed it was going much too fast into the curve and the brake was applied much too late to reduce the speed sufficiently.

There is some commentary on the fact that the speed restriction sign would only become visible to drivers once they were too close to reduce their speed to that level using a normal brake application. Drivers are expected to use their route knowledge to anticipate speed restrictions coming up. Advance warning signs have now been added at the location as well as at other similar locations elsewhere on Tramlink and other tramways in Britain. There might be further revisions to standard advice in due course.

It also says they are going to look further into the behaviour of the windows on the side of the tram when it overturned. It seems clear that most people who lost their lives did so as a result of the windows breaking. They are going to look into the different standards applied to windows in trams compared to mainline trains and buses.

This is an interim report; they are still to produce their final one.

 

[hash tag]

There is footage just released of a Croydon tram driver falling asleep at the controls. The assumption is, it is recent. The tram is not moving at the time, but it doesn't look good.