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The Virgin Mary

The Immaculate Conception was not an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church until Pope Pius IX infallibly said that it was in 1854. Before that date, Mary was considered to have had Original Sin.
 
PTK said:
The Immaculate Conception was not an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church until Pope Pius IX infallibly said that it was in 1854. Before that date, Mary was considered to have had Original Sin.
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It's like they just keep changing the narrative to see how much bullshit their followers will put up with. A lot like Apple in that regard. :D
 
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PTK said:
The Immaculate Conception was not an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church until Pope Pius IX infallibly said that it was in 1854. Before that date, Mary was considered to have had Original Sin.
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The fact was proclaimed in the 19th century, as you say. It was Truth long before then
 
PTK said:
What difference does it make that it is now a dogma? Does that mean that people within the church are not allowed to disagree?
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There is a massive variety of belief in the RC church over everthing from theological dogmas to moral teachings about sex, wealth, environment etc.
How do you imagine the Vatican is going to control what people in the pews actually believe?
 
Alan29 said:
There is a massive variety of belief in the RC church over everthing from theological dogmas to moral teachings about sex, wealth, environment etc.
How do you imagine the Vatican is going to control what people in the pews actually believe?
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Once upon a time, and not so long ago, it was certainly important that something was a dogma. If you questioned the party line, so to speak, you could be tortured or killed.
 
PTK said:
When was it decided the people would be allowed to have freedom of opinion within the Roman Catholic Church?
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How do you think people can be made to believe something? Are they mind readers? People belong to churches for a million different reasons - their friends are there, they like to have a good sing, they like the social activities, time for a bit of self examination and reflection, the music, to pray. I have never seen a check-list of beliefs as you go through the door. In my experience some people believe it all, but many just believe parts. In fairness I doubt if you see many out and out atheists in church unless they are employed as caretakers or organists etc.
In the past where religious belief was linked to the political system and terrible punishments were given to people who disagreed with that places religion, people learned to keep their counsel if they were out of step with the official religion. They could be seen as undermining the system. That is still the case in some parts of the world.
 
Alan29 said:
How do you think people can be made to believe something? Are they mind readers? People belong to churches for a million different reasons - their friends are there, they like to have a good sing, they like the social activities, time for a bit of self examination and reflection, the music, to pray. I have never seen a check-list of beliefs as you go through the door. In my experience some people believe it all, but many just believe parts. In fairness I doubt if you see many out and out atheists in church unless they are employed as caretakers or organists etc.
In the past where religious belief was linked to the political system and terrible punishments were given to people who disagreed with that places religion, people learned to keep their counsel if they were out of step with the official religion. They could be seen as undermining the system. That is still the case in some parts of the world.
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It is rather strange, when you think of it, that the scientific outlook of the Ancient Greeks came to be adopted as a doctrine of the Church, and that those who disagreed were punished.
 
PTK said:
The land that became Brazil became Christian with much blood being shed.
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No doubt and it's very sad; but, probably not as much bloodshed as that caused by pagans and atheists in their attempts to exterminate Christianity...
 
PTK said:
When was it decided the people would be allowed to have freedom of opinion within the Roman Catholic Church?
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The Irish Catholic church was a very free one ...until the Roman Catholic church dogma took over in 1111.
But people were controlled for a long time in Ireland.

I think things changed around 1993 here in Ireland. Many people voiced opinions about the church...especially after things stated to come to light.
The Bishop Casey stuff made people wake up...and more has come out about him recently. So much abuse carried out by a few priests. Then the Mother and Baby homes atrocities came to light... followed by the pedo priests being named and finally the state arresting them. People started talking a lot...about what had been done to them as children or young adults by individual Catholic priests .nuns...Christian brothers. And the church did nothing to help them..they were deserted... The church tried to move "problem priests" along or away. The cover up of what certain priests had done...and the church knowingly moving them on...to commit the same crimes again...

The 90s in Ireland definitely was when people started to speak out and they haven't stopped. Most convents are closed now. Most schools are managed by leity. Most Christian brothers are gone. Priests are few and far between.

So the Catholic church has no power now in Ireland. They still own land though...but many Convents have given their land to educational institutions..
Many Irish people still pray ..some. try to go to mass if they can. The true message is still relevant to many but the Religious Ministry and priesthood are practically gone. Parishes are sharing one priests between four parishes. So fewer masses are said.
It is what it is now.
The Roman Catholic refusal to allow married priests and women priests..is a huge issue for many practicing Catholics in Ireland.

I think by the year 2050 there won't be 50 priests in the country.
 
kabbes said:
Can you give an example of blood spilled by atheists in an attempt to exterminate Christianity? Because that’s a claim I’ve not heard before.
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The Vikings certainly did a fair lot of blood shedding in Ireland.. robbing raping and pillaging as they were won't to do. They did settle after a few raids though..& integrates into Irish society. The battle of Clontarf notably ended a few thousand lives...both Irish Christians and Vikings plus Hiberno Scandis
 
Aladdin said:
The Vikings certainly did a fair lot of blood shedding in Ireland.. robbing raping and pillaging as they were won't to do. They did settle after a few raids though..& integrates into Irish society. The battle of Clontarf notably ended a few thousand lives...both Irish Christians and Vikings plus Hiberno Scandis
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They weren’t atheists, though (they had their own religion) and their aim wasn’t to wipe out Christianity AFAIK. It was just generally to, well, raid.
 
Custer seems to have this bizarre view that there are atheists who are angrily trying to prevent Christians from being Christian, even to the extent of killing them for being Christian. Er, no. That’s what established religions do, not what those without religion do. Atheists might laugh at you for believing in stories and might even be pretty rude while doing so, but no atheist is actually trying to prevent you from believing whatever the fuck you like.
 
kabbes said:
They weren’t atheists, though (they had their own religion) and their aim wasn’t to wipe out Christianity AFAIK. It was just generally to, well, raid.
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Yes well...they did like chopping up the monks a lot.
They were quite bloodthirsty lot.
But some of them stayed and there's a fair bit of Viking dna now in Ireland..so I guess we can't complain.
 
bcuster said:
Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Diocletian
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Increasingly absurd. Stalin — yes. He was a nutcase across the board, who definitely did include all religion in his progroms. I’ll give you that one, albeit that Stalinism was about totalitarian control, not atheism per se. Mao, however, had no interest in Christianity whatsoever, he just wanted to eliminate the old ways in China, which included its Buddhist religious traditions. And next — far from wanting to eliminate Christianity, Hitler was actively endorsed by Pope Pious II, and there is evidence of a back channel between them! Finally, to suggest that Roman Emperors were atheists is just stupid.

Either way, none of these are relevant to contemporary atheism, of course. Not even Stalin.
 
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