The Virgin Mary

[mojo pixy]

There was also Atenism in ancient Egypt under the pharaoh Akhenaten, which was a step towards monotheism.

Interestingly, there is evidence of possibly Israelite names among the high ranking officials at that time in Egypt, which may be reflected in the story of Joseph (he of the technicolour dreamcoat).

OK but 'a step towards' monotheism under a pharaoh who fancied himself a bit more special than other pharaohs, isn't quite the one God, eternal and indivisible, which must not be depicted in any graven image** of Moses (another possibly apocryphal character tbf)

**egyptian pharaohs very much loved their graven images.

 

[PTK]

I can well believe that a bunch of superstitious Bronze Age peasants were completely convinced that their shaman had performed miracles and wanted to tell the world about it. That doesn’t mean I’m willing to take their word, separated by 2000 years, for granted as the literal truth, however.

Bronze age? You think that they did not use iron in those days?

 

[kabbes]

Bronze age? You think that they did not use iron in those days?

I’ll take that. They were following Bronze Age superstitions but they themselves weren’t of the Bronze Age.

 

[PTK]

I’ll take that. They were following Bronze Age superstitions but they themselves weren’t of the Bronze Age.

Also, those who wrote the Gospels were hardly "pesants". Not only were the literate, they were literate in Ancient Greek, the language of the intellecuals of the Roman Empire.

 

[kabbes]

Also, those who wrote the Gospels were hardly "pesants". Not only were the literate, they were literate in Ancient Greek, the language of the intellecuals of the Roman Empire.

They don’t comprise the complete set of so-called witnesses, though, do they? In many cases they are documenting the words of other witnesses.

 

[PTK]

They don’t comprise the complete set of so-called witnesses, though, do they? In many cases they are documenting the words of other witnesses.

Good point.
And, of course, the witnesses could not know if Mary was a virgin at the time of the conception and the birth of Jesus.

 

[mojo pixy]

Or it could all just be stories developed in the days of Rome to stop slaves from rebelling and instead to accept their lot in hope of a heavenly reward, with the crucifix as an encouraging reminder of the alternative idk

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

They don’t comprise the complete set of so-called witnesses, though, do they? In many cases they are documenting the words of other witnesses.

In many more cases the words of other people who made things up, or thought they saw something, or knew someone who did etc etc.

 

[PTK]

Or it could all just be stories developed in the days of Rome to stop slaves from rebelling and instead to accept their lot in hope of a heavenly reward, with the crucifix as an encouraging reminder of the alternative idk

Did not someone once say that the defeat of Spartacus led to the triumph of Jesus?

 

[Santino]

Or it could all just be stories developed in the days of Rome to stop slaves from rebelling and instead to accept their lot in hope of a heavenly reward, with the crucifix as an encouraging reminder of the alternative idk

Did not someone once say that the defeat of Spartacus led to the triumph of Jesus?

As a conscious strategy it would have been better if they hadn't arrested and executed openly Christian Romans.

 

[nogojones]

You'd all be cannibalistic vampires wanking off into seaweed, wearing matted hair, naked banging shells into the rocks trying to eat a raw whelk. Bearded toothless fools getting hunted by packs of badgers if it hadn't been for the civilising influence of the Saints, and you shall return to the place from whence you came.

The greatest post of 2024!

 

[Humberto]

The greatest post of 2024!

The toothless vampires damage it.

 

[mojo pixy]

As a conscious strategy it would have been better if they hadn't arrested and executed openly Christian Romans.

For the first few decades while it was a cult for foreigners and slaves it didn't matter all that much. Nero was the first to really persecute christians, IMO probably because by his reign they'd begun to appear among polite society and were making the old gods and the old gods' social structures look cruel and dated. And for about 100 years after that Christians became The Enemy Within (Vespasian who succeeded Nero tried to destroy jews and Judaism as well as christians). But slowly Christianity became more popular and by the 3rd century maybe only every other emperor persecuted Christians. Till Constantine I and the rest is history.

The suffer/die/accept/forgive thing existed in Judaism too tbh, as with many of Jesus' messages it's pretty much what any pious rabbi would have taught back then. My comment about discouraging slaves from rebelling and encouraging them to accept their lot was facetious, but not completely; I do think that was a function of christianity at times, among Romans who didn't persecute but didn't accept either, indeed I'd argue that's been one function of christianity ever since, through feudalism to slavery and beyond.

Anyway, the persecution began naturally enough when christianity started becoming a threat to Roman status quo (and status), and it only properly ended when at last an emperor realised the the name Jesus gave him more power than the old gods' names did.

Eh, opinions

 

[nogojones]

Incidentally, the original Jehovah was indeed a lesser God, part of a larger pantheon in the original mythology of the Bronze Age people that worshipped him. He was like Thor or Poseidon or Hermes — the child of the chief God (whose name was El, from whom we get the name “Israel”). That’s why the 10 commandments start off with the importance of not taking other Gods above this God. Jehovah’s followers just managed to win the wars of conquest over the followers of the other Gods and, combined with the PR genius of those commandments, the result was that the other Gods got put to one side.

El (deity) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And for a lot of of early Christians, mostly from what would be described as the Gnostic tradition, Yahweh was the demiurge. The creator of this material world, but also the creator of all evil. One step down from the true God.

 

[krtek a houby]

The toothless vampires damage it.

I've got that album

 

[andysays]

According to the Muggletonians heaven is 6 miles above the Earth, so there is, but not enough for humans to survive.

According to Belinda Carlisle, it's even closer than that.

 

[Aladdin]

We are barely scratching the surface of what is around us and seeing that everything is created from the same stuff. We are all part of this sameness. We are all...and everything is...the same. We and everything around us.. Every atom every electron and proton...we are ...and all of life .. is of the same stuff.

Interesting, a mirror image of a few people I know who were raised catholic but at some point, adopted judaism as their faith. IMO God being One, Eternal and Indivisible is an attraction of both judaism and islam over the god-split-in-three, for someone god-oriented.

The character of Jesus in the gospels says nothing that any pious, real-life rabbi wouldn't say, now or then: blessed are the poor, the peacemakers, those who love God and whoever treats their neighbour as kindly and lovingly as they wish for themselves. Rabbi Hillel the Elder (one of several candidates for 'the real jesus') famously quipped to someone who asked him what jews believe, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary; go and learn."
So all 'Jesus' said was normal Jewish stuff. What that got turned into (and how) as kabbes says, is far more important and interesting.
As far as I can tell, it wasn't the choice of God that made the original jews' beliefs different, it was that they were the first people (that we know of) to make their God "One", all-encompassing, eternal and indivisible. Rather than a human-type creature with other companions, a husband or wife, children etc. Not a pantheon or even a pair, but One. This was novel, at the time, and in a world of "many gods" must have possessed extraordinary power in the mind of a believer.

You know God was invented before Jesus or any of the Saints, right? The ethical and lifestyle rules of the Torah were rules 'jesus' will have lived by, and preached?

One if the major messages to his own people, his Jewish friends and family..as given by Jesus..was to move away from animal sacrifice. To stop. Anyone reading the OT will see that there was a lot of sacrificing of animals..goats...and even Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son ( and then being stopped by God). It was an accepted practice for many belief systems at that time...and Jesus would have grown up witnessing the atonement of sin through sacrifice through blood by the Jewish priests.
So then you get Jesus, a Jew, telling the Jewish priests and people to stop blood sacrifice and telling them that he will sacrifice himself as son of God..in atonement for every sin there has been or will be. He also talks of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit but that these three are One. So the "division" is not as humans think.

The Romans were the ones who actually put an end to the Jewish priests sacrificial practice when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. Apparently. With the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans, the Jewish practice of offering korbanot stopped for all intents and purposes.

 

[ouirdeaux]

So then you get Jesus, a Jew, telling the Jewish priests and people to stop blood sacrifice

Where exactly?

 

[mojo pixy]

We are barely scratching the surface of what is around us and seeing that everything is created from the same stuff. We are all part of this sameness. We are all...and everything is...the same. We and everything around us.. Every atom every electron and proton...we are ...and all of life .. is of the same stuff.


One if the major messages to his own people, his Jewish friends and family..as given by Jesus..was to move away from animal sacrifice. To stop. Anyone reading the OT will see that there was a lot of sacrificing of animals..goats...and even Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son ( and then being stopped by God). It was an accepted practice for many belief systems at that time...and Jesus would have grown up witnessing the atonement of sin through sacrifice through blood by the Jewish priests.
So then you get Jesus, a Jew, telling the Jewish priests and people to stop blood sacrifice and telling them that he will sacrifice himself as son of God..in atonement for every sin there has been or will be. He also talks of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit but that these three are One. So the "division" is not as humans think.

The Romans were the ones who actually put an end to the Jewish priests sacrificial practice when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. Apparently. With the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans, the Jewish practice of offering korbanot stopped for all intents and purposes.

It was Romans who destroyed the Second Temple (specifically Titus Flavius Vespasianus who later briefly became emperor, and whose victory arch commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem is still standing in Rome), so I'd argue it was pagan Romans more than any Christians, who really put the nix on Jews making korban sacrifices, as the temple was really the only place such sacrifice was allowed by that time.

Edit,

I think you edited that last paragraph in after I began writing my reply

 

[ElizabethofYork]

and even Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son ( and then being stopped by God). It was an accepted practice for many belief systems at that time...

Yes, told by God to sacrifice his son.
Then being stopped at the last minute.

God must be a sadistic maniac.

 

[Aladdin]

Where exactly?

Hebrews 10:11-18 – Jesus Christ Offers a Single Sacrifice

While the law of Moses calls for ongoing sacrifices, Christ offered one sacrifice in his death. This offering is effective for all time.

enterthebible.org

Jesus says, “I require mercy, not sacrifice” (Matthew 9:13, 12:7).

Matthew 12:7 The Scriptures say, ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’ You don’t really know what that means. If you understood it, you would not judge those who have done nothin | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (

The Scriptures say, ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’ You don’t really know what that means. If you understood it, you would not judge those who have done nothin

www.bible.com

It was Romans who destroyed the Second Temple (specifically Titus Flavius Vespasianus who later briefly became emperor, and whose victory arch commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem is still standing in Rome), so I'd argue it was pagan Romans more than any Christians, who really put the nix on Jews making korban sacrifices, as the temple was really the only place such sacrifice was allowed by that time.

Edit,

I think you edited that last paragraph in after I began writing my reply

I didn't read your post til now.. I was busy writing this to reply to ouirdeaux



Hebrews 9:12, “[Christ] entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Paul in Romans 3:25. He says, “God put [Christ] forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.”

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Hebrews 10:11-18 – Jesus Christ Offers a Single Sacrifice

While the law of Moses calls for ongoing sacrifices, Christ offered one sacrifice in his death. This offering is effective for all time.

enterthebible.org

Jesus says, “I require mercy, not sacrifice” (Matthew 9:13, 12:7).

Matthew 12:7 The Scriptures say, ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’ You don’t really know what that means. If you understood it, you would not judge those who have done nothin | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (

The Scriptures say, ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’ You don’t really know what that means. If you understood it, you would not judge those who have done nothin

www.bible.com

I didn't read your post til now.. I was busy writing this to reply to ouirdeaux



Hebrews 9:12, “[Christ] entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Paul in Romans 3:25. He says, “God put [Christ] forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.”

Jesus never actually said "stop sacrificing animals". And nor did any of his early followers. They claimed that he was the ultimate sacrifice, but there was never any mention of animal sacrifice having to stop.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Jesus says, “I require mercy, not sacrifice” (Matthew 9:13, 12:7).

Which doesn't refer to animal sacrifice. Try honesty, even if it goes against your Catholic principles. It's oddly refreshing.

 

[Aladdin]

Which doesn't refer to animal sacrifice. Try honesty, even if it goes against your Catholic principles. It's oddly refreshing.

What do you mean?
Are you saying that because I am Catholic that I am not honest? Or that Catholic principles are not honest?

And Mathew is pretty clear about animal sacrifice. Matthew 12:7 The Scriptures say, ‘I don’t want animal sacrifices; I want you to show kindness to people.’ You don’t really know what that means. If you understood it, you would not judge those who have done nothin | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) | Download The Bible App Now
Repeater revisions of translation have become clearer.

 

[Aladdin]

I dont see why anyone's personal faith or belief should be trolled.
I wouldn't do it to anyone..or any faith..or of no faith.

 

[krtek a houby]

Which doesn't refer to animal sacrifice. Try honesty, even if it goes against your Catholic principles. It's oddly refreshing.

Not a believer or a fan of dogma and woo, but this comment is off. No need for sectarianism here.

 

[ouirdeaux]

I regard all forms of religion as woo. But Catholics are excellent at disregarding, or weirdly interpreting, the texts on which their religions are based. Paul says that a bishop should be the husband of one wife, and that there will be people who will come along and forbid marriage, but they're wrong. And then what happens? The church decides (rather late, as it happens) to forbid clergy from marrying.

Hey, other religions do that. Look at Jewish dietary laws: the reason orthodox Jews don't eat dairy and meat at the same meal is because of exactly one line: Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. Which strikes me as a stretch, to say the least. Happy now?

 

[Aladdin]

I regard all forms of religion as woo. But Catholics are excellent at disregarding, or weirdly interpreting, the texts on which their religions are based. Paul says that a bishop should be the husband of one wife, and that there will be people who will come along and forbid marriage, but they're wrong. And then what happens? The church decides (rather late, as it happens) to forbid clergy from marrying.

Hey, other religions do that. Look at Jewish dietary laws: the reason orthodox Jews don't eat dairy and meat at the same meal is because of exactly one line: Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. Which strikes me as a stretch, to say the least. Happy now?

The early Irish Catholic Church had married priests. Up until the British decided that they would hold only to the Roman Catholic Church..which in turn forced the Irish chirch into adopting the Roman doctrine.

You say all religion is woo. You are entitled to your opinion and you have a right to not believe any religion or faith. But this thread has turned into a bashing of Catholicism and that means anyone who might be a Catholic feels unwelcome. If you want to start a "Let's Bash All Religions" then start a thread if that's what you are really interested in doing.

Some here may detest Catholics and Jews. But whether you like it or not the practice of faith and religion is actually a human right....just as much as the right to not hold a belief or faith.

You are trying to turn this thread into "Let's Batter the Catholics" and it's been personalised now.

 

[krtek a houby]

I regard all forms of religion as woo. But Catholics are excellent at disregarding, or weirdly interpreting, the texts on which their religions are based. Paul says that a bishop should be the husband of one wife, and that there will be people who will come along and forbid marriage, but they're wrong. And then what happens? The church decides (rather late, as it happens) to forbid clergy from marrying.

Hey, other religions do that. Look at Jewish dietary laws: the reason orthodox Jews don't eat dairy and meat at the same meal is because of exactly one line: Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. Which strikes me as a stretch, to say the least. Happy now?

Every religion has its alleged experts, interpreters and bullshitters.


But your singling out of a poster because of their religion is iffy.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Don't confuse battering Catholicism or the established Roman Catholic Church with battering Catholics. It's not the same thing.

The reason Catholicism gets such a bollocking is because many of us are or have been affected by it adversely, or family members have. That along with its oppressive history all around the world.